Heretical Marian worship

Translation of the Arabic sentence: “Oh mother of God, save us!”

Note: Karm el-Zeitoun is in Beirut, Lebanon

Note: Karm el-Zeitoun is in Beirut, Lebanon

In this picture, you find the name of this church

In this picture, you find the name of this church

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Religious Movements / Roman Catholicism and similar heresies /Examine all things

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25 Responses to Heretical Marian worship

  1. See also the following article about a Roman Catholic “Saint” who calls people to worship Mary in order to be saved more “easily”…

    St. Charbel says Mary saves…

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  2. unknown says:

    If you think you are doing Jesus’s words by saying things like that you are wrong….you quote things about love etc…but you dont do it, and if you think you are addressing these to education the people and help them , I dont think this is the right way, you are insulting Mary. oh well that is what you know. I ask God to forgive you as you do not know what you are doing. Peace be in your heart and with you.

  3. Dear unknown,

    It seems that there is a misunderstanding here: these pictures are not pictures of our local churches, but churches of heretics. So those insults against our Lord and those words of worship addressed to Mary instead of being addressed to Jesus are not what we say, but what those heretics say. So the people who are insulting Mary are those who do not respect her wish that all the Glory be given to Jesus and not to her.

    When you love someone, you should warn him/her concerning any wrong teaching that will hurt them. So it is because we love you that we tell you the truth about these heretical teachings so that you may not be deceived and finally find yourself in the eternal damnation. You should not give the Glory of God to any human, not even to Mary who is not more than a human.

    Finally, I hope these biblical articles are being of help for you, and I pray that you will be encouraged to read the Word of God to know the truth and not the lies of Satan. And if you want to see more pictures about those heretical teachings addressed in this article, you can go to our photostream on flickr.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  4. Our dear unknown finally admitted that he was just expressing his personal human subjective opinion when he said all the above, and he also admitted that we should not pray to Mary asking her to save us, as we read in those heretical declarations in the pictures in this article.

    If you want to read the confessions of unknown, you can go to the comments on the article Marriage: Pursuing Conformity to Christ in the Covenant.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  5. Charbel says:

    Again I see false propaganda been spread.

    I have not investigated the person who wrote the above article from the provided pictures and the comments on those pictures I can clearly see that the person is not Lebanese nor is familiar with Lebanese language nor Lebanese different sects.

    To illustrate my point.

    The above picture says: “Ya Walidat Al Elah Khalisan” i.e. Oh Mother of the God Save us”. The exact arabic (not Lebanese but arabic) statement that is used is an one of the differences between Catholics/Maronites and Orthodox. Orthodox refer to Mary as Walidat Al elah i.e. “Mother of the God” while Maronite says Omma El-lah i.e Mother of God. This is a major difference that distinguishes orthodox teachings from catholic and maronites.

    Further more, it is actually a shock to me to see how this single picture can provoke such response when (if you are lebanese and undrstand the culture of course ) if you travel all over Lebanon such statements are not exclusive to St Mary, you will see the same phrase been used for every saint or blessed figure… from Jesus until today people will put such statments on their cars houses on icons and necklaces they wear , for Gods sake I am wearing one myself, and I have about 5 different such phrase or similar in my house and car.

    So maybe you should start re-phrasing to Charbelian worship and Eliasian worship and Maronian worship and John Paul II worship and so on…..

    As a matter of fact Lebanon the country itself is dedicated to St Mary and St Mary is the patron saint of Lebanon, and historically in Lebanon St Mary carries local name, so you get Mother of Light, and Mother of (city or village name) etc….

    I therefore would like to ask you to revisit your false claims especially that you do not appear to neither understand Lebanese nor comprehend Lebanese language, culture and religious differences.

    Regards

    Charbel

  6. Dear Charbel,

    I hope this time you will care to clarify what exactly is the propaganda: that we’re trying to tell you to stop worshiping humans and to worship God alone?? Well, then according to you all the prophets of the Bible worked on this “propaganda”, because all of them called people to repent and to worship God alone and to leave their idols…

    Now, in your comment there are some interesting points:

    1. You assume that the author of this article is not Lebanese.

    2. The title of this article is “Heretical Marian worship”, and not “Heretical Maronite or Roman Catholic worship”… From your comment we conclude that you assume that only the Maronites or the Roman Catholics are Marian and that they alone worship Mary…

    3. Thanks for admitting that the Orthodox, as well as the Roman Catholics and the Maronites, worship Mary, as we see in the pictures. It is to be noted that this article is on our page “Roman Catholicism and similar heresies“… I hope you read carefully that ending part “and similar heresies”…

    4. Are you claiming that Roman Catholics and Maronites do not believe that Mary saves?? If yes, then thanks for admitting that the official Roman Catholic teaching in this regard is wrong, as it says that Mary saves…

    5. You admit that the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics do not agree about Mary. That’s interesting. I wonder who’s right…

    6. You admit that the Lebanese Marians, including you, worship not only Mary, but all Saints, and they hope that those humans will save them… The Marian churches are not teaching them that the Bible says that ONLY Jesus Christ can save us. All of this is done by Marians, so it’s Marian worship, whoever is the Saint who is worshiped, because it’s the same Marian principle.

    7. I know Lebanese Christians who are not dedicated to Mary but to the Lord Jesus Christ. So you’re wrong when you say that the whole of Lebanon is dedicated to Mary.

    The author of this article understands the Lebanese culture very well, therefore he calls the Marians to follow and worship Christ instead of Mary, just as the Bible teaches.

    Thank you for your comments.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  7. Charbel says:

    Inline
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    I hope this time you will care to clarify what exactly is the propaganda: that we’re trying to tell you to stop worshiping humans and to worship God alone?? Well, then according to you all the prophets of the Bible worked on this “propaganda”, because all of them called people to repent and to worship God alone and to leave their idols…


    – Propaganda: is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position, as opposed to impartially providing information. (Wiki)

    In your case you are targeting your propaganda (the two articles) at a group and a community, making up stories based on mere personal opinions, that are far being anywhere near objective.


    Now, in your comment there are some interesting points:

    1. You assume that the author of this article is not Lebanese.


    I did not assume but rather I extrapolated this with a margin of error based on your invalid/twisted/incorrect claims and lack of understanding the differences between Orthodox and Maronites.


    2. The title of this article is “Heretical Marian worship”, and not “Heretical Maronite or Roman Catholic worship”… From your comment we conclude that you assume that only the Maronites or the Roman Catholics are Marian and that they alone worship Mary…


    My comments were trying to tell you that the Marian worship is actually incorrect based on your assumptions. Therefore you should consider widening your naming conventions or propose a more global/generic name since Marian is strictly referring to Mary.


    3. Thanks for admitting that the Orthodox, as well as the Roman Catholics and the Maronites, worship Mary, as we see in the pictures. It is to be noted that this article is on our page “Roman Catholicism and similar heresies“… I hope you read carefully that ending part “and similar heresies”…


    Again false propaganda and personal/subjective opinion. What you believe in, is the actual heresy as opposed to what I believe in (Is more, or less subjective than your claims?)


    4. Are you claiming that Roman Catholics and Maronites do not believe that Mary saves?? If yes, then thanks for admitting that the official Roman Catholic teaching in this regard is wrong, as it says that Mary saves…


    Two contradicting statements!!! If I am admitting that the Roman catholic is not teaching Mary saves, how can the Roman Catholic teaching be wrong then? Mary saves or not is your own personal opinion, whether she does or does not is up to you and what you believe in, however to make a claim that Maronites worship Mary is not the same as beleiving that Mary can save through her intersession with her Son Jesus Christ. The Lord Chose Mary as his vessel to carry his word to the world.


    5. You admit that the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics do not agree about Mary. That’s interesting. I wonder who’s right…


    If you want to spread false propaganda, the least you could is read up a bit on the differences between Catholics and Orthodox, Maronites and Orthodox etc… , therefore I say both are right and you are wrong.

    Catholics and Orthodox disagree on many things and agree on many more others. I did not say they do/not agree on Mary I said Maronites and Orthodox refer to Mary differently in an attempt to correct your article that assumes Maronites worship Mary evidenced by using an image that contain a phrase which the Orthodox church uses and not the Maronites. As a matter of fact the church in the picture is also an Orthodox church too.


    6. You admit that the Lebanese Marians, including you, worship not only Mary, but all Saints, and they hope that those humans will save them… The Marian churches are not teaching them that the Bible says that ONLY Jesus Christ can save us. All of this is done by Marians, so it’s Marian worship, whoever is the Saint who is worshiped, because it’s the same Marian principle.


    Marian == Mary, therefore it is too limiting.. try picking up a more global term for that!!! I like Human worshippers…


    7. I know Lebanese Christians who are not dedicated to Mary but to the Lord Jesus Christ. So you’re wrong when you say that the whole of Lebanon is dedicated to Mary.


    Actually this confused me. I am not sure I quiet understand what you are/trying to say. There are also Shia, Sunna, Druze, Alawites etc…, and that does not change that Lebanon is dedicated to Mary, and Mary is the patron saint of Lebanon, the same way St George is the patron saint of England for example.


    The author of this article understands the Lebanese culture very well, therefore he calls the Marians to follow and worship Christ instead of Mary, just as the Bible teaches.

    You still have the audacity of claiming knowledge of Lebanese culture, yet you were unable to distinguish between Orthodox and Maronites.

    Self proclaimed modern theologians, who pretend to posses the power and ability to read and understand the bible, make different claims every other day, they then move on to form their own churches based on their own interpretations of the bible or what they think is the right interpretation, they then have a group of followers claim they have seen the light and truth is out there for those who want to see. Therefore there are 10’s of thousands of such churches…

    My question is: If the Catholic/Orthodox churches were wrong, which one of the other 10/20/30 thousand churches are right?

    If you want to be as close as possible to the true teachings of the bible the best and most logical thing to do is to go back to the roots. i.e. find the teachings of the theologians who lived near or close to the time of Christ and follow their teachings. This is much better than following a new modern self proclaimed person who “had a dream” or maybe “a nightmare” last night.

    I therefore propose that you go back to one of the earliest churches teachings and those are the churches of Antioch and Alexandria. (Marnoites/Syriacs, Copts), I also recommend learning Syriac because you will need it, since it was the language of Christ.

    Shlomo lokh.

    ALAAHAA BAARIKHLOOKH

  8. – Propaganda: is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position, as opposed to impartially providing information. (Wiki)

    In your case you are targeting your propaganda (the two articles) at a group and a community, making up stories based on mere personal opinions, that are far being anywhere near objective.

    We have seen what is the objective truth of God’s Word about these issues. God’s Word is not personal opinions.

    I did not assume but rather I extrapolated this with a margin of error based on your invalid/twisted/incorrect claims and lack of understanding the differences between Orthodox and Maronites.

    The article doesn’t even study the differences between Orthodox and Maronites. Make sure you know what the article is about.

    My comments were trying to tell you that the Marian worship is actually incorrect based on your assumptions. Therefore you should consider widening your naming conventions or propose a more global/generic name since Marian is strictly referring to Mary.

    But the article is about Marian worship, and we have proved our point: look how those Marians worship Mary, and all their Saints are supposed by them to be Mary-worshipers.

    Again false propaganda and personal/subjective opinion. What you believe in, is the actual heresy as opposed to what I believe in (Is more, or less subjective than your claims?)

    The Word of God is not personal subjective opinions. The Bible clearly says that you should worship God alone.

    Two contradicting statements!!! If I am admitting that the Roman catholic is not teaching Mary saves, how can the Roman Catholic teaching be wrong then? Mary saves or not is your own personal opinion, whether she does or does not is up to you and what you believe in, however to make a claim that Maronites worship Mary is not the same as beleiving that Mary can save through her intersession with her Son Jesus Christ. The Lord Chose Mary as his vessel to carry his word to the world.

    Let me quote the statements again: “Are you claiming that Roman Catholics and Maronites do not believe that Mary saves?? If yes, then thanks for admitting that the official Roman Catholic teaching in this regard is wrong, as it says that Mary saves…”

    It seems that you don’t know the difference between what Roman Catholics in general believe and what the OFFICIAL position is. For instance, it seems that your belief is that Roman Catholics should not believe Mary can save, while the official Roman Catholic position is that she saves… You couldn’t answer this, as it is clear…

    The Bible clearly says that there is no other name than the Name of Jesus given under heaven by which we can be saved. But you say that Mary can save through her intercession with her Son Jesus Christ. Show me where God said that there is a mediator between us and Jesus. And on your way, please show me where the Bible says that “the Lord chose Mary as His vessel to carry His Word to the world”. I will wait for your proofs.

    If you want to spread false propaganda, the least you could is read up a bit on the differences between Catholics and Orthodox, Maronites and Orthodox etc… , therefore I say both are right and you are wrong.

    Catholics and Orthodox disagree on many things and agree on many more others. I did not say they do/not agree on Mary I said Maronites and Orthodox refer to Mary differently in an attempt to correct your article that assumes Maronites worship Mary evidenced by using an image that contain a phrase which the Orthodox church uses and not the Maronites. As a matter of fact the church in the picture is also an Orthodox church too.

    So the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox disagree about Mary, and yet both are right… Interesting logic…

    But thanks again for admitting that the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox disagree on many things. I wonder who’s right…

    I remind you again that the article is NOT about Maronite worship of Mary, but about MARIAN worship of Mary. All those who worship Mary are Marians, whether they are Roman Catholics or Maronites or Orthodox.

    Marian == Mary, therefore it is too limiting.. try picking up a more global term for that!!! I like Human worshippers…

    Yes, but all of Marian Saints are supposed to have worshiped Mary. Study your theology.

    Actually this confused me. I am not sure I quiet understand what you are/trying to say. There are also Shia, Sunna, Druze, Alawites etc…, and that does not change that Lebanon is dedicated to Mary, and Mary is the patron saint of Lebanon, the same way St George is the patron saint of England for example.

    Who dedicated Lebanon to Mary? You?…

    You still have the audacity of claiming knowledge of Lebanese culture, yet you were unable to distinguish between Orthodox and Maronites.

    Show me where the author of this article said anything about the difference between Maronites and Orthodox. I am waiting…

    Self proclaimed modern theologians, who pretend to posses the power and ability to read and understand the bible, make different claims every other day, they then move on to form their own churches based on their own interpretations of the bible or what they think is the right interpretation, they then have a group of followers claim they have seen the light and truth is out there for those who want to see. Therefore there are 10′s of thousands of such churches…

    Right. But I don’t see the relation of this with the topic of this article.

    My question is: If the Catholic/Orthodox churches were wrong, which one of the other 10/20/30 thousand churches are right?

    The only true Church is the catholic Church of Jesus Christ. Read about it here.

    If you want to be as close as possible to the true teachings of the bible the best and most logical thing to do is to go back to the roots. i.e. find the teachings of the theologians who lived near or close to the time of Christ and follow their teachings. This is much better than following a new modern self proclaimed person who “had a dream” or maybe “a nightmare” last night.

    Yes, all of the Apostles lived very close to Jesus, and their writings are in the New Testament Book. Go to them, instead of going to uninspired humans who cannot tell you what God says.

    I therefore propose that you go back to one of the earliest churches teachings and those are the churches of Antioch and Alexandria. (Marnoites/Syriacs, Copts), I also recommend learning Syriac because you will need it, since it was the language of Christ.

    No, you can read only in the New Testament about what the earliest churches believed, so go to that root.

    The Bible clearly says that no creature should be worshiped, and that worship is for God alone in Christ alone.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  9. Charbel says:

    One track mind and you only know one thing.

    You have not responded you simply copied and pasted exactly the same responses.

    The link I followed to get to this article had the title : I thought you Maronites did not worship Mary or something to that effect. I clicked on it and ended up here.

    You did not asnwer which of the few thousand other churches is right? Are you also saying that if Mary can save it means, you are worhsipping her? You are still making no referecnes to intercession!!!

    Stop spreading false propaganda, and putting words into my mouth (rather hand in this case since I am using keyboard to type).

    There is a difference between Mary saves and Mary worship.

    How Jesus Christ bron?
    Why Mary ?
    And what is her role in the salvation?


    Disciples are still humans so what sets them different from any other? besides you are only following the bible that contains the 4 gospels, and by default that makes you a hypocrite, for the simple reason that this gospel was chosen by the same church fathers that you refuse to follow their teachings.

    Worship != Save

    Shlomo Lokh.

  10. Dear Charbel,

    We’re not responsible of the links that led you here. We’re responsible of the content of our article.

    There is a difference between Mary saves and Mary worship.

    How Jesus Christ bron?
    Why Mary ?
    And what is her role in the salvation?

    Mary has no role in Salvation. Salvation is wholly the work of God in Christ through His Spirit. Jesus was born supernaturally, by the Spirit, and Mary didn’t do anything in that miracle that happened TO her as a favor, just as the angel told her.

    Are you reading the Bible?…

    Disciples are still humans so what sets them different from any other?

    Yes, disciples are humans. Don’t follow disciples, but the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God.

    besides you are only following the bible that contains the 4 gospels, and by default that makes you a hypocrite, for the simple reason that this gospel was chosen by the same church fathers that you refuse to follow their teachings.

    Wrong. The Gospel is not a Book, but it is a Message, the Good Message of Salvation that came from God, and humans didn’t choose it or make it. As for the Bible, it was wholly chosen by God, and accepted by the Church. To know more about these issues, please read our article The Canon of Scripture.

    Worship != Save

    I didn’t get this logic…

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  11. Charbel says:

    Absolute indoctrinated one track mind.

    Worship != (Not equal to) Save (I hope you got it).

    Granted you may not be responsible for articles referncing your work, however your responsibility is not diminished in this case. You are missleading people by spreading false propaganda.

    Not only you are a hyprocirte but also living in self denial.

    I still did not get your respone as to why you follow the Gospel/Message/Word call it whatever makes you feel better…. That gospel was selected by the same fathers that you decline to follow their teachings.

    There were numerous gospels written, infact recently another gospel was discovered in Egypt, which tells some slightly different message. So why you do not follow what that gospel teaches for instance as opposed to the known 4 gospels?

    The gospel is not a book but a message, like it or not, it is a book and the bible consists of many books. These books carry a message, that is supposed to be the message of salvation.

    Based on the above:
    Why not follow the message of the Gospel of Mary Magadaline ?
    Why not follow the message of the Gospel St Thomas ?

    The link you posted about the Canon of Scriptures is another false claim, evidenced by recent archological discoveries from the dead sea scrolls to the Gospel of St Thomas.

    Is the gospel the literary word of God?
    Why Mary?
    Why not Elizabeth?
    What sets Mary different from all the rest so that she was chosen?

  12. Absolute indoctrinated one track mind.

    Will you stop your ad hominems?…

    Worship != (Not equal to) Save (I hope you got it).

    In the Bible, God says that He ALONE is the Savior. When you ask Mary to save you, that means you worship her as your savior in the place of God.

    Granted you may not be responsible for articles referncing your work, however your responsibility is not diminished in this case. You are missleading people by spreading false propaganda.

    Our article never talked about differences between Maronites and Orthodox. You should be humble to admit that you were wrong when you assumed this. You were misled by an article on another site, and you come to blame us… How interesting…

    Not only you are a hyprocirte but also living in self denial.

    Please, try to stop your personal insults as soon as possible, or else your posts will be moderated or you may even be banned.

    Yes, I am living in self denial by the Lord’s Grace, just as the Lord Jesus said:

    “Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.” (Matthew 16:24)

    I still did not get your respone as to why you follow the Gospel/Message/Word call it whatever makes you feel better…. That gospel was selected by the same fathers that you decline to follow their teachings.

    There were numerous gospels written, infact recently another gospel was discovered in Egypt, which tells some slightly different message. So why you do not follow what that gospel teaches for instance as opposed to the known 4 gospels?

    That’s because you didn’t take the time to read this article: The Canon of Scripture. In this article, you will be disillusioned about those “fathers” who you say have selected the Bible. Go read and learn; be humble.

    The gospel is not a book but a message, like it or not, it is a book and the bible consists of many books. These books carry a message, that is supposed to be the message of salvation.

    Well, the Bible says that the Gospel is a message. I prefer to believe the Bible, not you.

    Based on the above:
    Why not follow the message of the Gospel of Mary Magadaline ?
    Why not follow the message of the Gospel St Thomas ?

    Because those books are not in the Canon. Read this again: The Canon of Scripture.

    By the way: Can you please explain to us what is the relation of all this with the worship of Mary (the topic of this article)?…

    The link you posted about the Canon of Scriptures is another false claim, evidenced by recent archological discoveries from the dead sea scrolls to the Gospel of St Thomas.

    Then go to that article and disprove it.

    Is the gospel the literary word of God?

    Yes, just like the Law, the Gospel is the Word of God. And the whole Bible is the literal Word of God. You can read about this here: The Bible is the Word of God.

    N.B.: Please, go to the concerned articles to comment about the different topics. In this article, we concentrate on the heretical Marian worship.

    Why Mary?
    Why not Elizabeth?
    What sets Mary different from all the rest so that she was chosen?

    God’s choice. God chooses whomever He wants. None of us could deserve that choice. Read about this more here: Immaculate Conception?

    God didn’t choose Mary for any merit in her, but because of His favor to her.

    But I don’t see how all this can make you ask Mary to save you… Does all this make Mary your savior? The Bible says that only God is the Savior.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  13. Charbel says:

    My purpose is served here.


    Granted you may not be responsible for articles referencing your work, however your responsibility is not diminished in this case. You are missleading people by spreading false propaganda.

    You belong to the group of people whom I call the literarian, my own definition of this group of people is that they can not comprehend anything outside of the drawn scope for them, and when you attempt to discuss something with them they always refer you to some literary work , phrase, verse here and there like robots.

    I asked those questions in order to determine who am i dealing with.

    God can choose any one, and that any one he chooses surely must carry certain values… he would not pick just about anyone in his infinite wisdom now will he????

    Mary was chosen to be the vessel of salvation so the least you could do is give her some credit.

    I do not really want to bother reading and refuting every single article of your false propaganda… and I do not quiet like been referred to articles and verse every time I ask a question… if you have something to say just say it without refering unless you are trying to backup/illustrate a point.

    Furthermore you did not give me an answer as to why you are so happy with the 4 gospel as opposed to the other dozen or so if not more that were discounted by the fathers you condemn.

    This is what makes you a hypocrite.

    If your mother says son can help this old woman that needs help, you will say no to your mother right????

    So now take that and apply it to Jesus who is supposed to be the most loving and caring the one who sacrificed himslef for our salvation, he would not listen to his mother right.???

    Do you know the first mircale performed by Jesus? And why did he perform it, at time when his time did not come yet???

    Enjoy the best wine last 😉 ….

  14. Granted you may not be responsible for articles referencing your work, however your responsibility is not diminished in this case. You are missleading people by spreading false propaganda.

    Our article never talked about differences between Maronites and Orthodox. You should be humble to admit that you were wrong when you assumed this. You were misled by an article on another site, and you come to blame us… How interesting…

    You belong to the group of people whom I call the literarian, my own definition of this group of people is that they can not comprehend anything outside of the drawn scope for them, and when you attempt to discuss something with them they always refer you to some literary work , phrase, verse here and there like robots.

    I refer you to the Word of God which is a LIVING Word:

    “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)

    I asked those questions in order to determine who am i dealing with.

    You can go to our About us page instead, and you can read some of our article, and you will know.

    God can choose any one, and that any one he chooses surely must carry certain values… he would not pick just about anyone in his infinite wisdom now will he????

    Yes, He chooses a sinner and makes him a good vessel. That’s why the whole Glory and credit goes to God, and not to the one who received the grace, just as Paul asked the Corinthians:

    “For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? (1 Corinthians 4:7)

    Who regards Mary as superior?… Did she not RECEIVE that favor from God?…

    Learn from the Word of God…

    Mary was chosen to be the vessel of salvation so the least you could do is give her some credit.

    No, the whole glory and credit goes to the One who chose her WITHOUT any merit in her.

    By the way, Mary has received a favor, so she’s blessed by that favor. But that doesn’t make her a goddess or a savior. You can’t worship Mary or ask her to save you, because she can’t. God clearly says that He ALONE is the Savior.

    I do not really want to bother reading and refuting every single article of your false propaganda… and I do not quiet like been referred to articles and verse every time I ask a question… if you have something to say just say it without refering unless you are trying to backup/illustrate a point.

    As I said, all off topic arguments are answered in other articles, so you do better to address them in the concerned articles. If you’re too lazy to read the answers to your questions, then don’t ask.

    Furthermore you did not give me an answer as to why you are so happy with the 4 gospel as opposed to the other dozen or so if not more that were discounted by the fathers you condemn.

    My answer is in OUR article entitled The Canon of Scripture. Read it carefully and learn.

    This is what makes you a hypocrite.

    Ad hominem again… Be careful.

    If your mother says son can help this old woman that needs help, you will say no to your mother right????

    Yes, if that old woman wants me to help her steal or murder someone, then I won’t listen to my mother’s bad advice. In that case, my mother should learn to behave.

    But what does this have to do with our topic?…

    So now take that and apply it to Jesus who is supposed to be the most loving and caring the one who sacrificed himslef for our salvation, he would not listen to his mother right.???

    He will, only if she obeys Him. Mary will not tell anyone to worship her instead of Jesus.

    By the way: you still have not showed us where God says that Mary is the mediator between us and Jesus…

    Do you know the first mircale performed by Jesus? And why did he perform it, at time when his time did not come yet???

    Enjoy the best wine last

    Yes. It was the miracle in Cana of Galilee. He performed it in obedience to His Father according to His time’s conditions (you surely need to understand what the time of Jesus means, because Jesus was not saying that He would not do any miracle before His time comes), while He refused to obey Mary and told her not to interfere.

    Jesus didn’t say that He would not do any miracle before His time comes, but that He would not reveal Himself the way He did before and on the cross before His time comes. It’s the same thing He said to His brothers in John 7 where His brothers made the same mistake that Mary did in John 2. They wanted Him to show Himself so that they may boast of Him before people, but Jesus chose the way that suits His time and the Will of His Father.

    Once again, I want to know what this has to do with Marian worship…

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  15. Charbel says:

    Of course you do not see, what all this has to do with Mary’s intercession.

    You insist on referring to it as Worship as opposed to intercession.

    So from the previous we have concluded that Mary recognized that the wine ran out, and as a result asked her son to help, and despite that he did not want to do this because his time has not come yet, however he still accepted his mother’s request and performed the miracle, therefore the word of Mary is very well heard by Jesus.

    In simple terms she interceded with her son to perform the wine miracle.

    God could have chosen any one, but he chose Mary. When she went to see Elizabeth and Mary saluted Elizabeth : Elizabeth responded of how she felt what is inside Mary is blessed, therefore we conclude that God’s choice of Mary did have an impact on her life and blessed her among the women, isn’t that what the Angel said to her too??

    So we have seen that Mary did indeed intercede with her Son to perform the miracle at Cana, and also we have seen that she is blessed among women, therefore asking for her intercession is not wrong.

    Regarding the article, again, I said Granted…. so it seems you are not reading.. I granted you the right, however me doing this, does not relieve you from your responsibility since your article here , deceived someone who wrote an article referencing your deceitful work, so your responsibility is not diminished in this case.

    Your article “Canon of Scriptures” did not have anything of merit, or value, I wanted a valued response from you, as opposed to a lengthy article that is not worthy of a response, and is not worth the effort that was spent on typing it. which is why when you first posted the link and I read, I still insisted on an answer of value.

    [Off topic comment removed. Post this comment on the following article: The Canon of Scripture]

    Therefore I conclude that you are using the Gospels and bible hand picked by the church fathers to actually discredit those same fathers, and this is what makes you a hypocrite. So in order for your point to have some kind of merit you need to study all discounted books and decide on why the church fathers chose those and then come up with a condemnation of their actions, bin their chosen gospels, and teachings.

    You accept one thing and refuse the other. (Hypocrisy at its best)

    We have shown that you accept the bible and gospels chosen by the church fathers, yet you do not accept the teachings of those fathers, and you have used those same Gospels and bible to validate your point, an action that is not worth the time spent typing it.

    From wiki:
    An ad hominem (Latin: “to the man”), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue

  16. Of course you do not see, what all this has to do with Mary’s intercession.

    You insist on referring to it as Worship as opposed to intercession.

    The pictures in the article show how Marians ask Mary to SAVE them, and not to intercede for them. Besides this, I am still waiting for you to show me where God ever said that Mary is the mediatrix between us and Jesus. I hope that you will try to provide that proof soon…

    So from the previous we have concluded that Mary recognized that the wine ran out, and as a result asked her son to help, and despite that he did not want to do this because his time has not come yet, however he still accepted his mother’s request and performed the miracle, therefore the word of Mary is very well heard by Jesus.

    In simple terms she interceded with her son to perform the wine miracle.

    Please, quote Mary asking Jesus to turn the water to wine. I will wait patiently for your answer.

    By the way: Did Mary ask Jesus also to do the rest of His miracles afterward? Do I understand from your view that Jesus would not do any miracle during His lifetime as long as His time had not come yet?

    And another comment: Why did Jesus tell His mother not to interfere in the issue?

    Think well about these questions, as the answers will help you get out of the darkness in which you are.

    God could have chosen any one, but he chose Mary.

    So Mary is thankful and only God is glorified.

    What’s next in this weak argument?…

    When she went to see Elizabeth and Mary saluted Elizabeth : Elizabeth responded of how she felt what is inside Mary is blessed, therefore we conclude that God’s choice of Mary did have an impact on her life and blessed her among the women, isn’t that what the Angel said to her too??

    Yes, God’s choice had an impact on Mary, but it didn’t make her a goddess.

    Elizabeth knew about who was in Mary’s womb because John the Baptist told her by a sign: “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Luke 1:41) It’s interesting how you don’t read the Bible carefully and you don’t see these things.

    And yes, Mary is blessed AMONG women, and not OVER women. And far it is from her to be blessed over men. She’s only blessed among women, as from all women she alone got this favor of becoming the mother of the Lord. Once again, I remind you that this was a FAVOR, and she didn’t get it because of any merit in her, as the Bible explains. And I hope you don’t worship Jael in the same way you worship Mary, because she also is blessed among women: Most blessed of women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite; Most blessed is she of women in the tent.” (Judges 5:24)

    You read the Bible so superficially, that’s why your leaders deceive you so easily. I pray that you will read the Bible with more honesty, seeking to understand the mind of God, and not seeking to prove your own opinions.

    So we have seen that Mary did indeed intercede with her Son to perform the miracle at Cana, and also we have seen that she is blessed among women, therefore asking for her intercession is not wrong.

    No, we have seen that Jesus asked her NOT to intercede, and He REFUSED to do what she asked for and did only the Will of His Father according to the conditions of His time that had not come yet. He always did ALL of His miracles in this SAME way, and Mary was NOT involved in any of them, because she was humble and she understood that she should not interfere, just as Jesus her Lord asked her to do in Cana. Unlike you, she was a humble woman and she obeyed her Lord and God Jesus Christ.

    And yes, we have seen that Jael also was blessed among women, and yet she was not a goddess. Mary is not different. Mary is as human as Jael. Besides this, Mary is blessed AMONG women and NOT over women. And also, Mary is NOT blessed among men, so she’s not blessed more than all humans. Indeed, look what Jesus said about John the Baptist:

    “Verily I say to you, that there is not arisen among [the] born of women a greater than John the baptist. But he who is a little one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11)

    Did you see what Jesus said? There is NO ONE among those who are born of women (including Mary, because Mary also is born of a woman…) greater than John the Baptist. So I wonder from where you got the idea that Mary is greater than John the Baptist and that we should worship her.

    Please, try to read the Bible more honestly, because it is the Word of God. Do not add your personal opinions to it.

    Regarding the article, again, I said Granted…. so it seems you are not reading.. I granted you the right, however me doing this, does not relieve you from your responsibility since your article here , deceived someone who wrote an article referencing your deceitful work, so your responsibility is not diminished in this case.

    Please, explain how the logic works: if someone misunderstood our article, then this means that we are responsible? Then according to your logic Jesus is responsible because the Jews misunderstood Him and persecuted Him and crucified Him?…

    Be more logical and consistent…

    Your article “Canon of Scriptures” did not have anything of merit, or value, I wanted a valued response from you, as opposed to a lengthy article that is not worthy of a response, and is not worth the effort that was spent on typing it. which is why when you first posted the link and I read, I still insisted on an answer of value.

    Then go and comment on it and show us its worthlessness. By the way, I see that you have already commented on it, thus proving that you are kidding with us when you say that that article is not worthy of a response…

    Therefore I conclude that you are using the Gospels and bible hand picked by the church fathers to actually discredit those same fathers, and this is what makes you a hypocrite. So in order for your point to have some kind of merit you need to study all discounted books and decide on why the church fathers chose those and then come up with a condemnation of their actions, bin their chosen gospels, and teachings.

    You accept one thing and refuse the other. (Hypocrisy at its best)

    The Church Fathers didn’t choose which Books to accept, but decided from the Books that were ALREADY accepted which books should NOT be accepted. As I said, you need to read the following article carefully: The Canon of Scripture.

    We have shown that you accept the bible and gospels chosen by the church fathers, yet you do not accept the teachings of those fathers, and you have used those same Gospels and bible to validate your point, an action that is not worth the time spent typing it.

    I accept the teachings of the Church Fathers, but not as inspired writings. The Church Fathers made some big mistakes as we have seen in many of our articles on this weblog.

    From wiki:
    An ad hominem (Latin: “to the man”), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue

    So let your comments be relevant to the issue, and stop accusing people of what they are not and did not do. You don’t know me personally, so stop judging and using ad hominems. I warned you that your ad hominems and off topic comments will be removed.

    So please try to comment on the article respectfully, and be consistent.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  17. Charbel says:

    Since you are a literarian here is The actual verse in English:

    1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
    3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
    4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
    5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

    In Verse 5 Mary asked the servants to do whatever Jesus asks them to do. Obviously Mary knew that:

    Jesus will not say no to her
    Her statement in verse 3 was an implicit request

    Based on the above we conclude that Mary did not even wait for Jesus to say, she automatically assumed he will oblige her request.

    We have seen that Mary has a certain valued status, and therefore Jesus will oblige her requests, even though his time has not come yet to reveal himself.

    Therefore Mary is capable of saving souls through interceding with Jesus. There is no such thing as Marian worship as you falsely make it to be. Catholics, Orthodox, and Maronite accept the Creed, therefore your claim does not stand at all and is therefore misleading.

    Regarding personal or not personal and not understanding my logic, this is your problem, if you are incapable of understanding what I am trying to say and there is nothing I can do about this!!!!? and I am responding based on your response which clearly show a personality with a tunnel vision that is not capable of thinking outside of the box that has been drawn and the proof is your response…. for every question or query or debate the response does not come from you but rather from a verse here or an article there, so now I wonder where is your own free contribution here??

    A literarian is incapable of free thinking, the books he/she reads are the response, and not the mashed up result , and collective conclusion of what has been read and understood.

    I therefore conclude that any person can take your position and I will not see a difference in responses Just like Jehovah witnesses for example… they are all single one track mind… to every question they have a list of responses that has been prepared before hand and they go back to these responses as and when they need to.

    Regarding the Canon of scriptures, the reason why I chose to paste my response there is to make sure that an alternative view is provided so that people do not get deceived with your false propaganda.

    You are free to believe what you like, however you are not free to educate others on what they believe or not believe in, you can say I believe in the Sun to be all knowing god of this universe, but you can not tell me that I do or do not believe in A, B or C based on your own views of what I believe in.

    Hiding behind a verse here or an article there is not good practice, but rather shows weakness…

    The Bible/Gospel is not the Word of God, Jesus is the incarnate WORD of God, the Gospel is the good news of Salvation.

    I will not be responding on this topic as further… I have achieved what I wanted to do , and provided and alternative view… so that others may not be mislead with your false propaganda.

    As I said you are free to believe and preach what you believe in, however you are not free to attack other people believes…. at the end of the day it is of no concern to you whether the Orthodox church believes that Mary can/not save or whether the Catholic church worships Mary.

    The disciples of Jesus preached and died for what they believed in. It is an insult to Christians that someone declares him/her self disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus Chose his disciples personally…

  18. Since you are a literarian here is The actual verse in English:

    1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
    3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
    4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
    5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

    In Verse 5 Mary asked the servants to do whatever Jesus asks them to do. Obviously Mary knew that:

    Jesus will not say no to her
    Her statement in verse 3 was an implicit request

    Based on the above we conclude that Mary did not even wait for Jesus to say, she automatically assumed he will oblige her request.

    You misquoted that passage, although you say you quoted it because I am a “literarian”…

    Let’s read that passage as it is in the original:

    “1And on the third day a marriage took place in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
    2And Jesus also, and his disciples, were invited to the marriage.
    3And wine being deficient, the mother of Jesus says to him, They have no wine.
    4Jesus says to her, What have I to do with thee, woman? mine hour has not yet come.
    5His mother says to the servants, Whatever he may say to you, do.”
    (John 2:1-5)

    In verse 4, the expression “what have I to do with thee” (or “what have I to do with you”) means “why do you interfere in my work?” (As you know Lebanese Arabic, so it’s like the Lebanese expression “shou khassneh fikeh?” or “shou 2ilik ma3eh?”) So He doesn’t want her to interfere. Then He adds that His hour had not come yet, and of course His hour was the hour when He would offer Himself as sacrifice. Based on this, we conclude that Mary was asking Him to do something that would make Him reveal Himself in a way that would make things go out of the plan of God, so He refused. Mary understood her error, and as she was humble, so she went backward and took again her place of a servant, and asked the servants to do whatever JESUS wants and in the way HE wants to do it.

    This is the true image of the humble Mary, unlike your false image in which you say Mary didn’t wait for Jesus to decide or to say… She was not disobedient as you describe her.

    We have seen that Mary has a certain valued status, and therefore Jesus will oblige her requests, even though his time has not come yet to reveal himself.

    Wrong. His hour was not about the time when He would reveal Himself, but about the time He would offer Himself as a sacrifice. He had already revealed Himself publicly when He went to John the Baptist to get baptized. As for His hour, the Bible clearly says when was the time when that hour came, but I will leave it for you for the time being to look for that passage. We already have an explanation about that on our blog, if you want to search.

    Mary is a simple believer like all of us, and the Bible never says that she’s a mediatrix between us and Jesus. I remind you that I am still waiting for you to show me where God said that she’s a mediatrix between us and Jesus. Nobody obliges God to do anything, and your idea about Mary obliging Jesus to do things against God’s plan is very wrong, to say the less…

    Therefore Mary is capable of saving souls through interceding with Jesus.

    We have seen that the Bible says that ONLY Jesus can save souls, so saying that Mary can save souls is a blasphemy.
    And we have seen that you still didn’t show us any biblical reason for Mary to be a mediatrix (intercessor) between us and Jesus, as Jesus Himself is a human like us.

    There is no such thing as Marian worship as you falsely make it to be. Catholics, Orthodox, and Maronite accept the Creed, therefore your claim does not stand at all and is therefore misleading.

    The Creed does not say that Mary saves.

    And we have seen how the pictures in the article reveal that Marians believe Mary saves, thus they worship her (because the Bible says that ONLY God is the Savior).

    Regarding personal or not personal and not understanding my logic, this is your problem, if you are incapable of understanding what I am trying to say and there is nothing I can do about this!!!!? and I am responding based on your response which clearly show a personality with a tunnel vision that is not capable of thinking outside of the box that has been drawn and the proof is your response…. for every question or query or debate the response does not come from you but rather from a verse here or an article there, so now I wonder where is your own free contribution here??

    The articles to which I am linking when the topic is about a biblical truth are articles from my weblog, so I wonder what you are talking about… And if you’re bothered that I prefer to quote what God says and not what my personal opinion is, then that’s your problem: That means you don’t want to obey what God says.

    A literarian is incapable of free thinking, the books he/she reads are the response, and not the mashed up result , and collective conclusion of what has been read and understood.

    The only way to be really free is to keep the Word of God:
    “Jesus therefore said to the Jews who believed him, If ye abide in my word, ye are truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” (John 8:31-32)

    You think free thinking means to disobey God’s Word…

    Regarding the Canon of scriptures, the reason why I chose to paste my response there is to make sure that an alternative view is provided so that people do not get deceived with your false propaganda.

    We’re not here to see human views, but we want to know the truth. Go to that article and see the truth about the Canon of Scripture.

    You are free to believe what you like, however you are not free to educate others on what they believe or not believe in, you can say I believe in the Sun to be all knowing god of this universe, but you can not tell me that I do or do not believe in A, B or C based on your own views of what I believe in.

    God has the whole right to tell you the truth and to call you to judgment for not obeying His Will. The Bible is the Word of God, so you either believe what it says, or your personal opinion is taking you to eternal damnation. I am saying this for your benefit, because if you love someone you tell him the truth and you don’t pay him lip service.

    Hiding behind a verse here or an article there is not good practice, but rather shows weakness…

    The Word of God is the real power that you are not being able to face. Calling it weak will not make it such.

    The Bible/Gospel is not the Word of God, Jesus is the incarnate WORD of God, the Gospel is the good news of Salvation.

    The Bible is whose word then?

    Just a hint: “Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)
    And if you want, you can read and see how Jesus said that the Bible is the Word of God. Here is an article on our blog: The Bible is the Word of God.

    I just want you to note that I never said that the Bible is the incarnated Word of God. I am talking about the written Word of God.

    I will not be responding on this topic as further… I have achieved what I wanted to do , and provided and alternative view… so that others may not be mislead with your false propaganda.

    Thanks for your contribution, but we are not here to listen to alternative human views; we’re here to study God’s Word and to obey it.

    As I said you are free to believe and preach what you believe in, however you are not free to attack other people believes…. at the end of the day it is of no concern to you whether the Orthodox church believes that Mary can/not save or whether the Catholic church worships Mary.

    It is my concern as a disciple of Jesus Christ to tell people the truth so that they may repent and leave the darkness in which they are walking heading to eternal Hell. If you love people, you tell them the truth.

    The disciples of Jesus preached and died for what they believed in. It is an insult to Christians that someone declares him/her self disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus Chose his disciples personally…

    You are confused about the difference between a disciple of Jesus and an Apostle of Jesus. Jesus chose His Apostles, you mean?…

    Anyways, that’s another topic now.

    Yes, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I witness to the truth of God’s Word, but you refuse to believe.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  19. Charbel says:

    I did not misquote the verse, I copied it as is from the biblegateway website.

    Obviously, I am fully aware that your claims are always based on one particular doctored interpretation of the bible, hence your claim of misquoting.

    Another weakness…. you do not see the context… you search for specific words that suite your exact agenda and false propaganda.

    If I were you I would not accept any of those translations and I would get hold of the earliet possible Greek/Syriac bibles I can get hold of and Learn Syriac and Greek and translate myself…

    With regards to listening to alternative human or none human…

    Well you have actually validated my point that you have nothing of value yourself hence your constant quoting, this makes you a slave rather than free human you ought to be, and what Jesus wanted you to be.

    The points provided here are human views and not God.

    Unless you are saying you are God?

    The way I see it, there exists your views and articles and my arguments…

    Quoting the bible does not mean that you are putting God’s word against mine… which is normally the purpose of people who are indoctrinated into this style of debate or discussion.

    I can quote the bible to refute your claims as well… this is a double edged sword and I will not accept your interpretations and have my own.. so there… can you see how weak your argument is? It is very fragile… hence herseies such as your came and gone over the last 2000 years… yet the church is still there standing…

    I therefore ask one question why would Mary ask the servants to do anything at all if she was told not to interfere by Jesus? it is obvious that Mary knew that Jesus will do something to help if he thinks it is worthy of doing… therefore she asked the servants to do what he asks them to do.

    This is not debatable. Your arguments about verse 4, make verse 5 unnecessary, which is not the case here is it?.

    Regarding “My hour has not yet come”:
    You said:

    Wrong. His hour was not about the time when He would reveal Himself, but about the time He would offer Himself as a sacrifice.

    It is quite interesting what you said.
    Here is a question:
    What is it that Jesus can do after he offers himself as a sacrifice?
    is it : Perform a miracle?
    Listen to his mothers request?
    I eagerly await your response.

    The Gospel is the good news of Salvation, and yes I will be quiet happy with the written word of God. Now keeping that word makes a disciple of Jesus, however the question what makes you think that you are keeping this word thus qualifying as disciple and declaring yourself as one?

    Jesus did not ask us to be so narrow minded, he used lots of parables in his preaching and for a good reason, to make us think and understand… and not be a literarian like yourself.

    We follow the Creed and as your quiet rightly said the Creed does not worship Mary… so why all the fuss then?? It means you are spreading false propaganda, which is what I have been telling you.

    You are free to preach wha.tever you like, but not make false claims about what others believe in.

  20. I did not misquote the verse, I copied it as is from the biblegateway website.

    You don’t understand. You said you would quote a LITERAL version of the Bible because I am a “literarian”, but you went and quoted a non-literal translation! Given your promise, you did misquote.

    Obviously, I am fully aware that your claims are always based on one particular doctored interpretation of the bible, hence your claim of misquoting.

    This has nothing to do with interpretations. The Greek words in that verse are fully clear and they are used in other passages of the Bible.

    Another weakness…. you do not see the context… you search for specific words that suite your exact agenda and false propaganda.

    We have seen the context: Mary asked Jesus something, and Jesus told her not to interfere in that way because His hour had not come yet. Any objections to this?…

    If I were you I would not accept any of those translations and I would get hold of the earliet possible Greek/Syriac bibles I can get hold of and Learn Syriac and Greek and translate myself…

    The Greek original says exactly what I quoted for you. I quoted from a literal version. That expression in John 2:4 is in Greek: “τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί” (ti emoi kai soi). This literally means “what to me and to you?” This same expression is used in other places in the Bible; example: in Mark 1:24, an unclean spirit told Jesus “τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί” (ti ēmin kai soi). This literally means “what to us and to you?”… I hope you don’t understand this the way that version which you quoted puts it, because in that case you will be in a trouble… This is an unclean spirit talking to Jesus, so I don’t think you believe he told Him “why do you involve us?”… Was Jesus involving the unclean spirit in His work?…

    So next time, when you promise someone to give a literal translation, just do what you promised.

    With regards to listening to alternative human or none human…

    Well you have actually validated my point that you have nothing of value yourself hence your constant quoting, this makes you a slave rather than free human you ought to be, and what Jesus wanted you to be.

    The points provided here are human views and not God.

    Unless you are saying you are God?

    The Bible is the Word of God, and not human views. I clearly showed you what the Bible says, but you don’t want to believe that. You rather prefer to worship Mary, despising what God clearly says about that sin.

    The way I see it, there exists your views and articles and my arguments…

    Quoting the bible does not mean that you are putting God’s word against mine… which is normally the purpose of people who are indoctrinated into this style of debate or discussion.

    I can quote the bible to refute your claims as well…

    Go ahead: Quote the Bible saying that Mary can save anyone. I am waiting…

    this is a double edged sword and I will not accept your interpretations and have my own.. so there… can you see how weak your argument is?

    I don’t accept anyone’s interpretation, not even mine. I follow God’s interpretation of His Word. Each passage is interpreted somewhere else in the Bible. Just try to answer me with the Bible and you will see how the Bible is against your views.

    It is very fragile… hence herseies such as your came and gone over the last 2000 years… yet the church is still there standing…

    Yes, the Church stands on the Word of God.

    And if you want to call me a heretic, you first need to show me how my teachings disagree with the Bible, or else you will be using ad hominems again.

    I therefore ask one question why would Mary ask the servants to do anything at all if she was told not to interfere by Jesus?

    Because she understood by faith that she should disappear from the screen and let Jesus be in the center. That’s the humble Mary who obeyed her Lord’s command not to interfere but to let JESUS do what HE wants to do and not what SHE wanted Him to do.

    it is obvious that Mary knew that Jesus will do something to help if he thinks it is worthy of doing… therefore she asked the servants to do what he asks them to do.

    Of course! And who said that Jesus would not do anything?? He just would not do it the way Mary was asking Him to do it. He did it in the way that agrees with the conditions of His hour, i.e. in the way that agrees with God’s plan. Mary is a human, so she often misunderstood what was happening in the life of Jesus (read Luke 1 and 2 to see how she’s confused in many instances), but the grace of God in her life shines as she believed even those things which she didn’t understand. In John 2 we have another example of the instances in which Mary misunderstood the way Jesus worked, but she believed Jesus and obeyed Him when He told her not to interfere and to let Him do what He would do. THAT’s the true Mary of the Bible, and not your Mary who imposes things on God!

    This is not debatable. Your arguments about verse 4, make verse 5 unnecessary, which is not the case here is it?.

    Please, show us how verse 5 is unnecessary when Mary wants the whole Glory to go to Jesus, as I explained above.

    Regarding “My hour has not yet come”:
    You said:

    Wrong. His hour was not about the time when He would reveal Himself, but about the time He would offer Himself as a sacrifice.

    It is quite interesting what you said.
    Here is a question:
    What is it that Jesus can do after he offers himself as a sacrifice?
    is it : Perform a miracle?
    Listen to his mothers request?
    I eagerly await your response.

    It is: to let the Jews catch Him to go to the cross.
    The hour came in John 12 (Read John 12:23,27, and do a research on our weblog to find the place where we have explained this in details). I told you to do a research about this, but it seems you didn’t. The hour is when Jesus would offer Himself as a sacrifice. When that hour came, He was ready to let the Jews catch Him according to God’s plan. Before that hour came, He would not do anything that would make it possible for the Jews to catch Him or would give the Jews the wrong reason that they needed to catch Him: “So they were seeking to seize Him; and no man laid his hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come.” (John 7:30) It’s all in that same Gospel according to John in which you read about Cana’s wedding, but you can’t see it because all your thoughts turn only around Mary and around the purpose of making her what she is not…

    The Gospel is the good news of Salvation, and yes I will be quiet happy with the written word of God. Now keeping that word makes a disciple of Jesus, however the question what makes you think that you are keeping this word thus qualifying as disciple and declaring yourself as one?

    Because the Lord Jesus saved me; I received the Good News of Salvation.

    Jesus did not ask us to be so narrow minded, he used lots of parables in his preaching and for a good reason, to make us think and understand… and not be a literarian like yourself.

    Jesus told us to believe God’s Word. God’s Word clearly says that ONLY Jesus can save. Mary cannot save anyone, because she is not God!

    We follow the Creed and as your quiet rightly said the Creed does not worship Mary… so why all the fuss then?? It means you are spreading false propaganda, which is what I have been telling you.

    Yes, the Creed does not say that Mary saves, so when you ask her to save you, then you worship Mary and you disagree with the Creed.

    You are free to preach wha.tever you like, but not make false claims about what others believe in.

    The Bible clearly says that there is no Salvation in anyone BUT JESUS! And the photos in the article clearly show that Marians ask Mary to save them, thus making her their savior. I am not making any claim here; I just presented the photos. Do you think that those photos are not real?…

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  21. Charbel says:

    Your responses exhibit a number of errors which I will try to highlight.

    For starters I did not say I will quote a literal translation of the bible, what I said was I will quote the actual verse in English, obviously, introducing the literal translation term into your response, is a credit to me and boosts what I said, which is that all your claims are weak because you can not look at the contextual meaning of what is meant as opposed to the literal exact translation, therefore all your arguments require a particular translation that suites your false agenda.

    You also need be very careful with your literal translation, you can not accept a literal translation outside the context it was written in, and therefore you will need a historical universally acceptable independent reference to make claims as to what was meant by this or that exact verse or term, and one good example is the word “Petros”.

    I am also happy you accepted that you can only used a doctored translation of the bible.

    Based on the above to me it does not matter which translation you want use, what is important is the contextual meaning.. therefore I will quote your accepted translation and ask you the question again that you could not answer because the question is not in your repository (FAQ):

    “1And on the third day a marriage took place in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
    2And Jesus also, and his disciples, were invited to the marriage.
    3And wine being deficient, the mother of Jesus says to him, They have no wine.
    4Jesus says to her, What have I to do with thee, woman? mine hour has not yet come.
    5His mother says to the servants, Whatever he may say to you, do.” (John 2:1-5)

    In your responses you said that Jesus asked Mary to stay away and not interfere, assuming that is exactly what was meant, I therefore conclude that verse 5 is no longer necessary at all.

    Here is an analogy:
    Kids need money and mother asks dad:
    Mum: do you have any money?,
    Dad: Leave me alone I do not have any.
    Mum: Kids come and see dad what dad wants or Kids do what dad asks you to do…..

    The point here is why would the mum call the kids if the father already responded negatively. Unless the mother already knew that dad will not say no to her request anyway, hence she proceeded, to politely ask the kids to see dad!!!.

    I hope this made my point clearer as to why verse 5 is redundant as per your interpretation. Therefore the fact that verse 5 is there is enough solid concrete proof that Mary knew Jesus would respond positively to her request, now whether this happened through the holy spirit or some other means, make no difference what so ever. Fact of the matter is Mary asked/hinted/requested and Jesus did not decline.

    Going back to “My Hour has not come yet”, I am not debating what is meant by that exact term at the moment, and I can see your dilemma here, and why you avoided an answer…. no matter how your interpret that to mean, which is not my discussion at the moment at least.

    My question was simple:
    What is that Jesus can do after his hour has come (in the context of the quoted verse)?
    1- Listen to what his mother asks him?
    2- Perform miracles?

    Finally I have not heard or seen anyone claiming that Salvation can be outside of Jesus, so again thank you for accepting that what your doing is spreading false propaganda about others.

  22. For starters I did not say I will quote a literal translation of the bible, what I said was I will quote the actual verse in English,

    The good side of debates on internet is that what we write is kept before all readers to see it. Let me quote what you said:

    Since you are a literarian here is The actual verse in English” (Bold added by me)

    Anyone who reads this would conclude that you would give me the actual literal words of that verse put in English, as you said “since you are a literarian”. Anyways, it’s good that you admit that you didn’t give a literal translation of that verse. I have already given you what that verse literally says, and I have explained to you how your translation is not an exact translation.

    obviously, introducing the literal translation term into your response, is a credit to me and boosts what I said, which is that all your claims are weak because you can not look at the contextual meaning of what is meant as opposed to the literal exact translation, therefore all your arguments require a particular translation that suites your false agenda.

    We have seen the context, and we have seen what that literal expression means. If you’re bothered by the context and by the meaning of that expression, then whose problem is that?

    You also need be very careful with your literal translation, you can not accept a literal translation outside the context it was written in, and therefore you will need a historical universally acceptable independent reference to make claims as to what was meant by this or that exact verse or term, and one good example is the word “Petros”.

    The SAME expression or word used in the SAME language and in a SIMILAR context means the SAME thing. We have seen how Jesus told His mother not to interfere. You’re trying to ignore that by adding your philosophies. But that doesn’t work, because the truth is clear and before everyone to see.

    I am also happy you accepted that you can only used a doctored translation of the bible.

    Where did I ever say this?? You can use any good version available to read the Bible. But when you want to study it deeply, you need to study the exact expressions and not believe any human who tells you anything about it. It is YOU who advised me to study the original Greek and not to believe anyone. I wonder why you changed your mind now… Maybe because the original Greek didn’t make a benefit for your cause??…

    Based on the above to me it does not matter which translation you want use, what is important is the contextual meaning..

    And we have seen how in the context Jesus talked about His hour, and we have seen how that means that He didn’t want His human mother to interfere, but wanted to do all things according to God’s plan. Any objections to the context?…

    therefore I will quote your accepted translation and ask you the question again that you could not answer because the question is not in your repository (FAQ):

    “1And on the third day a marriage took place in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
    2And Jesus also, and his disciples, were invited to the marriage.
    3And wine being deficient, the mother of Jesus says to him, They have no wine.
    4Jesus says to her, What have I to do with thee, woman? mine hour has not yet come.
    5His mother says to the servants, Whatever he may say to you, do.” (John 2:1-5)

    In your responses you said that Jesus asked Mary to stay away and not interfere, assuming that is exactly what was meant, I therefore conclude that verse 5 is no longer necessary at all.

    Let’s read again verse 5:

    “His mother says to the servants, Whatever he may say to you, do.”

    What’s wrong in this verse? I explained to you that Mary understood by faith that she should disappear from the screen and let Jesus be in the center, as that’s exactly what Jesus told her (i.e. not to interfere and to let Him do things according to God’s plan, according to the conditions of His hour). That’s the humble Mary who obeyed her Lord’s command not to interfere but to let JESUS do what HE wants to do and not what SHE wanted Him to do. Jesus did it in the way that agrees with the conditions of His hour, i.e. in the way that agrees with God’s plan. Mary is a human, so she often misunderstood what was happening in the life of Jesus (read Luke 1 and 2 to see how she’s confused in many instances), but the grace of God in her life shines as she believed even those things which she didn’t understand. In John 2 we have another example of the instances in which Mary misunderstood the way Jesus worked, but she believed Jesus and obeyed Him when He told her not to interfere and to let Him do what He would do. THAT’s the true Mary of the Bible, and not your Mary who imposes things on God! Therefore, she just told the servants to do what He would command them to do, because Jesus clearly told her that He would do something according to God’s plan and not according to what she asked.

    Here is an analogy:
    Kids need money and mother asks dad:
    Mum: do you have any money?,
    Dad: Leave me alone I do not have any.
    Mum: Kids come and see dad what dad wants or Kids do what dad asks you to do…..

    The point here is why would the mum call the kids if the father already responded negatively. Unless the mother already knew that dad will not say no to her request anyway, hence she proceeded, to politely ask the kids to see dad!!!.

    But your assumption is that Jesus didn’t want to do anything!! But WHO said that He would not?? WHERE did you read that He would not?? You just ASSUME that, because that’s what you have been taught by your Priests!! Where did Jesus say that He didn’t want to do anything?? Where did dad say he wouldn’t give his kids some money?? Jesus only said that He wouldn’t do it the way MARY asked Him to do it, because in that way God’s plan would not be respected, as His hour had NOT come yet. Jesus would not commit suicide; He would not deliver Himself to the Jews or show Himself to the Jews as the Messiah that THEY thought Him to be! He would do it the way God wanted Him to do it and at the exact time (His hour). I see that you’re still not getting this matter of Christ’s hour… Jesus even warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He’s the Messiah!! His mother wanted Him to show Himself in Cana in a way that would make the Jews think He is an earthly king, thus getting a wrong idea about who the Messiah is. He didn’t want to ruin God’s plan like that. In God’s plan, all things have their exact time, and Christ’s hour had not come yet.

    Just don’t assume that Jesus didn’t want to do any miracle until His hour comes! On the contrary, He would do miracles as long as His hour had NOT come! In the night no one can work! That’s what He Himself said! “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.” (John 9:4)

    Don’t you notice how your understanding is clearly built on a false assumption that says that Jesus would not do anything good to people until His hour comes?? Just think about this in a calm way, and you will see that this is a false assumption.

    I hope this made my point clearer as to why verse 5 is redundant as per your interpretation. Therefore the fact that verse 5 is there is enough solid concrete proof that Mary knew Jesus would respond positively to her request, now whether this happened through the holy spirit or some other means, make no difference what so ever. Fact of the matter is Mary asked/hinted/requested and Jesus did not decline.

    We have seen how Mary asked Jesus, and Jesus declined her request, and told her that He would not do it the way she asked Him to do it, because His hour had not come yet.

    Going back to “My Hour has not come yet”, I am not debating what is meant by that exact term at the moment, and I can see your dilemma here, and why you avoided an answer…. no matter how your interpret that to mean, which is not my discussion at the moment at least.

    But THAT’s the most important point in this whole matter, because Jesus built on THAT cause His answer to Mary!! He told her not to interfere BECAUSE His hour had not come yet!! So if you misunderstand what His hour is, then you don’t have any idea about why He told her not to interfere. And we have seen what His hour is. I hope you also made a research about that as I advised you.

    My question was simple:
    What is that Jesus can do after his hour has come (in the context of the quoted verse)?
    1- Listen to what his mother asks him?
    2- Perform miracles?

    I have answered this. I said that when His hour came, Jesus could let the Jews catch Him to go to the cross. The hour came in John 12 (Read John 12:23,27, and do a research on our weblog to find the place where we have explained this in details). I told you to do a research about this, but it seems you didn’t. The hour is when Jesus would offer Himself as a sacrifice. When that hour came, He was ready to let the Jews catch Him according to God’s plan. Before that hour came, He would not do anything that would make it possible for the Jews to catch Him or would give the Jews the wrong reason that they needed to catch Him: “So they were seeking to seize Him; and no man laid his hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come.” (John 7:30) It’s all in that same Gospel according to John in which you read about Cana’s wedding, but you can’t see it because all your thoughts turn only around Mary and around the purpose of making her what she is not…

    I just thought about something, so I thought I should make the comment: Don’t assume that Christ’s “hour” means a certain hour of 60 minutes, OK?… That hour is the time or period in which Jesus would be delivered to go to the cross. It’s not a 60 minutes hour… it’s a time.

    Finally I have not heard or seen anyone claiming that Salvation can be outside of Jesus, so again thank you for accepting that what your doing is spreading false propaganda about others.

    I have heard of Muslims claiming that, and many other religions. I wonder how you say you live among Muslims and you still have not heard ANYONE claiming that Salvation can be outside of Jesus…

    As for the Marians, they claim that Salvation can be in Jesus AND in Mary, as we have seen in the photos posted in the article. But the Bible clearly says that NO ONE (no other name!) than Jesus can save! Only God can save. Saying that Mary can save is like saying that she is God!! Mary cannot even LOOK to the book that is in God’s hand!! Have you read that in Revelation?? NO CREATURE could look to that book! Only Jesus could do that!

    So stop placing your hope on the wrong things and persons, and repent and come to Jesus: He is the ONLY Savior.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

  23. Charbel says:

    `Martha, Martha, thou art anxious and disquieted about many things, but of one thing there is need

    You being a literarian does not mean that I will have to quote you a literal version, there is a difference between The actual verse & The literal verse. (See my definition of a literarian: Someone who goes by the the word, verse… no context… “Al kotobyeeen if you like”), furthermore it makes no difference to me which version you use…

    Regarding doctored I only said that because you did not comment on the statement, but it is nothing new really for certain Christians to use one particular version that helps to emphasis their claims.

    I quote: Mary understood by faith that she should disappear from the screen and let Jesus be in the center, as that’s exactly what Jesus told her (i.e. not to interfere and to let Him do things according to God’s plan, according to the conditions of His hour). That’s the humble Mary who obeyed her Lord’s command not to interfere but to let JESUS do what HE wants to do and not what SHE wanted Him to do.

    But your assumption is that Jesus didn’t want to do anything!! But WHO said that He would not?? WHERE did you read that He would not?? You just ASSUME that, because that’s what you have been taught by your Priests!! Where did Jesus say that He didn’t want to do anything?? Where did dad say he wouldn’t give his kids some money?? Jesus only said that He wouldn’t do it the way MARY asked Him to do it, because in that way God’s plan would not be respected, as His hour had NOT come yet.

    His mother wanted Him to show Himself in Cana in a way that would make the Jews think He is an earthly king,

    The phrase I posted at the top summarizes your above 3 quotes. How did you conclude that Mary should disappear? As a matter of fact she did not and verse 5 is a clear proof, furthermore I am not assuming Jesus didn’t want to do anything, the same question applies to you, where did you read that he would do anything?, therefore you are no better than the Priests you claim they have taught me.. are you not doing the same? interpreting in your own way and based on your understanding!!? and you want to convince everyone that your interpretation is correct ?

    What way Mary wanted him to do it? I did not read this anywhere, besides are you second guessing what Mary wanted? How do you know what Mary wanted? where did you get this idea from?

    You are over complicating something very simple only to make it fit your own agenda, that’s all you are doing really.

    Actually it is catch 22 for you, I asked you what could Jesus do after his hour has come, you attempted to answer by over complicating the problem.

    Mary said the wine is out, now imagine that Jesus’ hour has come, would he have said ok mum and performed a miracle? Or he would have said to his mother stay away and do not interfere, in which case “My hour has not come” is only aimed at keeping Mary at bay as opposed to revealing himself, and so it is redundant because it makes no difference to Mary’s request (i.e. whether his hour has come or not). Also if his hour did not come yet according to your explanation, (he did not want to perform a miracle and reveal himself), therefore I conclude that the do not interfere to Mary was only because his hour did not come yet and not because he did not want her to interfere only.

    “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.” (John 9:4)

    Again over complicating things.. what does John 9:5 say? and why does it follow the statement above? This was a parable and 9:5 explains what 9:4 means. Also your quote says “WE”, my quote would say “I”… (John 9:4 (Young’s Literal Translation) it behoveth me to be working the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night doth come, when no one is able to work: — )

    Also I have my reservation on the meaning of “My hour has no come yet”, but I do not wish to divert the topic into something else, nor start a new debate on one of your other articles at least for now.

    Finally when I said I have not heard or seen anyone claiming that Salvation can be outside of Jesus, so again thank you for accepting that what your doing is spreading false propaganda about others, this was a response to that Catholic and Orthodox believe in the Creed, so it is part of that context… Actually this clearly show how incapable you are of making association, you are so literal that you get lost as to what the context is.

    AND again no one claims that Mary saves in the fashion you put, it is rather through her intercession with her son.

    By the way Jesus would listen to each one of us, if we ask him, and this is what he told us, so what makes you think he would not listen to his Mother or Saints?

  24. The phrase I posted at the top summarizes your above 3 quotes. How did you conclude that Mary should disappear?

    The Lord Jesus told her not to interfere. Did you forget this?…

    Besides this, the whole Bible teaches us that we should deny ourselves and give all glory to God. Mary is one of us humans, and that applies to her as well.

    As a matter of fact she did not and verse 5 is a clear proof,

    Verse 5 is a clear proof that she disappeared from the screen and told the servants to look to Jesus and not to her, and to do what HE asks them to do.

    furthermore I am not assuming Jesus didn’t want to do anything,

    Then why did you say that Mary made Him do what He did? If Jesus would already do something, then what need was there for Mary to push Him to do it?

    the same question applies to you, where did you read that he would do anything?,

    All prophecies about Christ say that He would do miracles according to God’s Will. He was not in need for Mary to remind Him why He was here.

    therefore you are no better than the Priests you claim they have taught me..

    Who said I am better? Have I not told you not to listen to any human (including me), but to read and believe what the Bible says?

    are you not doing the same? interpreting in your own way and based on your understanding!!?

    No, I quoted for you the Bible interpreting that expression, if you remember. And I can still quote for you another passage from the Bible where the same thing that happened with Mary happened with others, but I am going with you step by step so that you may understand very well what the hour of Christ is. You have been taught many wrong things about this, while we have seen how the Bible explains the hour of Christ very well, without any need for interpretation. Jesus clearly said when that hour came.

    and you want to convince everyone that your interpretation is correct ?

    Those who believe the Bible do not need an extra effort from my side to believe what the Bible clearly says about these issues.

    What way Mary wanted him to do it? I did not read this anywhere, besides are you second guessing what Mary wanted?

    I told you how she wanted Him to do it, based on the cause Jesus used to tell her not to interfere. Jesus explained what that cause means… He explained it in John 7. Open that passage and read the same cause there and start to think a little. I won’t impose things on you here; I want you to study this with me. Open John 7 and tell me why Jesus told His brothers that He wouldn’t go to Jerusalem, but then went… Do you think He obeyed the intercession of His unbelieving brothers just as you think He obeyed Mary’s request?… Just go read that and think about it…

    How do you know what Mary wanted? where did you get this idea from?

    From the Bible. Go read John 7 and come back and tell me what you studied.

    You are over complicating something very simple only to make it fit your own agenda, that’s all you are doing really.

    It’s not complicated at all. It’s as easy as understanding why Jesus told His mother not to interfere and why He gave His hour as the reason. Anyone who studies the Bible knows what that reason means.

    Actually it is catch 22 for you, I asked you what could Jesus do after his hour has come, you attempted to answer by over complicating the problem.

    What’s so complicated in this? I said when His hour came, He was ready to let the Jews catch Him. What’s so complicated in this? All the time they could not catch Him, and John says why: because His hour had not come yet.

    Do you know why Jesus told His disciples not to tell anyone He’s the Christ before He died and rose? Did you ever think about that?…

    Mary said the wine is out, now imagine that Jesus’ hour has come, would he have said ok mum and performed a miracle?

    No, He would perform a miracle anyway!! You’re still assuming that Jesus would not do a miracle if Mary didn’t tell Him!! As if the miracle was not in the plan of God!! In another instance, the disciples told Jesus about the great multitude that had nothing to eat and Jesus made the miracle with the five loaves and the two fish! Does this mean that the disciple who told Him that information obliged Him to do the miracle?? The miracle was already in the plan of God, and Jesus would surely do that miracle. But He didn’t want to do it according to the way that Mary was asking Him to do it, just as He didn’t want to go to Jerusalem the way His brothers were asking Him to go… Go to John 7, study this, and come back…

    Or he would have said to his mother stay away and do not interfere, in which case “My hour has not come” is only aimed at keeping Mary at bay as opposed to revealing himself, and so it is redundant because it makes no difference to Mary’s request (i.e. whether his hour has come or not).

    That means that Mary asked Him something that disagrees with the fact that His hour had not come yet, just as His brothers did in John 7. Go read that and tell me if Jesus lied when He said that He wouldn’t go to Jerusalem…

    Also if his hour did not come yet according to your explanation, (he did not want to perform a miracle and reveal himself),

    Wrong!! Where did I say that He didn’t want to perform a miracle?? I said the exact opposite! I said He would do a miracle, but NOT in a way that ruins God’s plan! He would not reveal Himself in the wrong way! For this cause, He even told His disciples not to tell anyone that He’s the Messiah!!

    therefore I conclude that the do not interfere to Mary was only because his hour did not come yet and not because he did not want her to interfere only.

    Yes, because His hour had not come yet, and she was asking something that disagrees with that fact, just as His brothers were asking in John 7.

    “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.” (John 9:4)

    Again over complicating things.. what does John 9:5 say? and why does it follow the statement above? This was a parable and 9:5 explains what 9:4 means. Also your quote says “WE”, my quote would say “I”… (John 9:4 (Young’s Literal Translation) it behoveth me to be working the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night doth come, when no one is able to work: — )

    Yes, Jesus was talking about Himself. And verse 5 says: “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” So Jesus would do miracles as long as His hour had not come yet. This is what I was explaining.

    Also I have my reservation on the meaning of “My hour has no come yet”, but I do not wish to divert the topic into something else, nor start a new debate on one of your other articles at least for now.

    But you don’t understand that THIS is the reason why Jesus told His mother not to interfere!! And we have seen in the Bible what that hour is.

    Finally when I said I have not heard or seen anyone claiming that Salvation can be outside of Jesus, so again thank you for accepting that what your doing is spreading false propaganda about others, this was a response to that Catholic and Orthodox believe in the Creed, so it is part of that context… Actually this clearly show how incapable you are of making association, you are so literal that you get lost as to what the context is.

    I never claimed in this article that Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe that Salvation can be outside of Jesus (although many of them today say that), so try to be more precise next time. I said Marians make Mary another savior besides Jesus, while the Bible teaches that Salvation is in the Name of Jesus ALONE! No one other than Jesus can save, because He alone is the Savior. No human could help Him in that Salvation, not even Mary who also is a human.

    AND again no one claims that Mary saves in the fashion you put, it is rather through her intercession with her son.

    I am still waiting for you to show me any biblical verse or passage or reason for Mary to be a mediatrix between us and Jesus as long as Jesus is a human.

    By the way Jesus would listen to each one of us, if we ask him, and this is what he told us, so what makes you think he would not listen to his Mother or Saints?

    Yes, He said that. So why do you assume that you need other humans to intercede for you in Heaven?? Would not Jesus hear you without anyone interceding?

    Besides this, who said that Jesus didn’t hear the prayers of Mary and all saints while they were here striving in the way of sanctification?? But now that they are dead, they have rested of their warfare (see Revelation 6:11), and prayer is spiritual war (see Romans 15:30). They do not continue their warfare in Heaven. All churches believe that the Church is in warfare on earth, while the Church which is already in Heaven with Jesus is in glory and has finished her warfare. So the dead saints are not striving in prayer anymore.

    Besides this, even if you would imagine that they can pray for us, then how would that make Mary a savior?? How does it make it lawful to tell her “save us!”?? Do you tell your brother who is alive to save you?? Is Mary’s prayer more meritorious than your brother’s prayer??

    And besides this, how will you communicate with Mary to tell her to save you?? Is she God? Is she Omnipresent? How will she hear you? The Bible says that only God hears prayers, and that’s obvious because only God is Omnipresent and Omniscient.

    All these biblical reasons make it impossible that Mary be your savior! Only Jesus can save, because He is God. He can intercede for us in Heaven, because He is with us in our warfare through His Holy Spirit and He is able to save to perfection! That’s what the Bible says. He is the One who paid the wages of our sin by His blood, so He is the only One who can intercede before God for us.

    Grace be with you!
    Disciple of Jesus Christ

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