We continue our comments on the manuscript sent to us from a Mormon.(*)
In the following lines, Stephen Douglas declares some interesting and childish doctrines of the Mormon cult, so they don’t deserve each an article. I take his statements each one apart and I comment on them.
Speaking of side notes,
Just look how long his “side-notes” are and how full they are with erroneous doctrines… And he still complains that we are replying to each point in his introduction… N.B.: This whole part is still in his introduction, and we have not commented on the passages where he says nothing of such an importance that needs to call our attention and comments.
I wish to mention an issue into which I do not wish to delve too deeply.
In fact, all the doctrines of Mormonism must be accepted without a deep study, or else no one would accept them…
Just as with the JWs, most ECs look at Adam with disdain, he having created this terrible situation in which we find ourselves—mortality.
Humans can’t create anything. Only God is the Creator. Besides, death is not something created, but it is the result of sin. So I would advise you to make a good choice of your words, as Mormons usually change the meanings of words as they wish, and thus they fall in doctrinal errors because of misunderstandings.
On the other hand, true Christians do not look with disdain to Adam as a person, for he is our first parent. Adam received the sign of the Atonement of Christ from the hands of God: “And Jehovah Elohim made Adam and his wife coats of skin, and clothed them.” (Genesis 3:21) This was the symbol of Christ’s Righteousness with which we are clothed. Naturally, man prefers to accuse others for his sins, and many people prefer to accuse Adam, just as you see Stephen Douglas accusing Adam for our mortality. In fact, although sin entered through Adam and with sin death, but we all die because we all have sinned! Read with me:
“For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned“ (Romans 5:12)
All have sinned!! This is what Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not understanding, and therefore they do not believe that we have received the sinful nature from Adam and thus we are unable to please God in the flesh, in this old nature of Adam. For this reason also they cannot understand how true believers in Christ will never die. Jesus said:
“and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die.” (John 11:26)
Pastor Frederick K. C. Price even called Adam, “That fool!” in one of his televised sermons.
Frederick K. C. Price is a heretic who follows the doctrines of the Word-Faith Movement. This movement has doctrines that are very similar to the doctrines of Mormons, so we are not surprised to hear that he may have said such a wrong thing. And yet, we need to see the context of his expression to be fair. To get some idea about what this heresy called “Word-Faith Movement” teaches, you can see our articles in the section: Charismatics, Pentecostals, and Word-Faith Movement.
But the sole fact that Stephen quoted this heretic and considered him an “Evangelical Christian” shows that he doesn’t know what “evangelical Christian” means. We have explained these things in our article: Mormons confess that they are NOT evangelical Christians.
Because we believe Adam had to break one of God’s two commandments—to not partake of the forbidden fruit and to reproduce—while in the Garden to fulfill the other, many ECs claim, just as do the JWs, we must therefore believe “Original Sin” involved sexual intercourse. This is not only not a reasonable conclusion, it is an ignorant presumption given without any forethought of its unfeasibility as anyone’s doctrine.
So you read how Stephen confessed that Mormons believe that Adam had to break one of God’s commandments… And after stating this very big erroneous teaching, all what he does is to raise a non-issue about the original sin that he puts in quotation marks, thus confessing that Mormons do not believe that we received the sinful nature (the sinful flesh) from Adam. As we all sin and are slaves to sin, so I would like to see how Stephen explains this fact without the original sin. Besides, instead of raising a non-issue, I would like to see how Stephen justifies the Mormon accusations against God! They accuse God of putting Adam and Eve in a situation in which they were obliged to break one of His commandments! This is equal to say that God obliged man to sin! May it never be!
Let me just note that the original sin has nothing to do with the sexual relation of Adam with Eve. God created us male and female, and sexual relations were never a sin within marriage. Adam and Eve didn’t need to break any commandment of God in order to be fruitful and fill the earth as God commanded (cf. Genesis 1:28); they could have sexual relations as husband and wife within marriage, without having to break any commandment, and their sexual relations were pure within marriage. The Bible clearly says:
“[Let] marriage [be held] every way in honour, and the bed [be] undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers will God judge.” (Hebrews 13:4)
The marriage bed should be kept undefiled, as it is pure.
Stephen goes on in the childish doctrines with which his Mormon teachers have deceived him so much that he became ridiculous. Read:
First, we do not consider Adam’s transgression a “sin.” Sin requires knowledge an action taken is wrong. In their state of innocence, Adam and Eve did not have an understanding of “good and evil” until they partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with the freedom to choose, and it has nothing to do with the knowledge of Adam that eating from that tree was wrong. Let me take each of these points:
1. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with the freedom to choose: This is evident, as you don’t need to be neutral in order to choose. Adam and Eve were created good, so they didn’t need to be outside of good and outside of evil in order to choose to obey God or in order to have the ability to disobey and thus choose evil. You don’t need to lose all your money in order to be able to choose to keep it. This is simple logic. You can just choose to keep your money while it is still with you. In the same way, Adam and Eve could very simply choose to keep their innocence, and they didn’t need to lose it in order to choose to keep it. You see of course the wrong logic of Stephen that has no basis in the Word of God. The knowledge of good and evil means to be independent and neutral, i.e. independent from good and evil as such.
2. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with the knowledge of Adam that eating from that tree was wrong: This is evident, as you don’t need to experience the result of falling from the 10th floor of a building in order to know that you will die if you do. How do you know that you will die? Because you believe what the human experience tells you about men who fell and died, and you believe science that explains why you will die if you fall. In the same way, Adam didn’t need to experimentally know evil in order to avoid it, as God told him: “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.” (Genesis 2:17) All what Adam had to do was to believe what God said about that tree, just as you believe human experience and human science concerning the falling from the 10th floor.
So Adam knew the action taken was wrong. God told him very clearly that it is wrong. So when he disobeyed, he sinned. In fact, although you put a distinction between a transgression and a sin, and yet God says that sin is the transgression of His commandments: “Every one that practises sin practises also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.” (1 John 3:4) When you break the Law, i.e. the commandments of God, you sin.
Stephen continues the ridiculous comments:
While in the Garden, Adam and Eve did not know they were naked until they had taken of the fruit, let alone how to engage in sexual relations.
How ridiculous this man has become… You see how cults enslave your mind and make you believe many ridiculous things, as they suppress the use of common sense…
Now, look how Stephen puts a relation between the knowledge of nakedness and the knowledge about how to engage in sexual relations… Do you see any relation between the two? I don’t see any relation. And the Bible doesn’t put any relation at all!! On the contrary, the Bible clearly tells us that sexual intercourse is possible without the knowledge that we are naked. You ask me how the Bible says this? Very simple; read with me:
“And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth. And there was evening, and there was morning — a fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing of the ground after its kind. And God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:20-25)
“Bring forth with thee every animal which is with thee, of all flesh, fowl as well as cattle, and all the creeping things which creep on the earth, that they may swarm on the earth, and may be fruitful and multiply on the earth.” (Genesis 8:17)
The same “commandment” that Stephen puts as an obstacle before the commandment not to eat from the forbidden tree is given to the animals and the fish and the birds: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth”… I would like to hear the explanation of Stephen: How could those animals have sexual intercourse as long as they didn’t eat from the forbidden tree and didn’t “know” that they were naked?…
In fact, the feeling of nakedness originally was not related with the sexual intercourse. When sin entered the world, lust also began, and thus nakedness became a shame and it began to arouse sinful sexual feelings. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve could enjoy all the blessings of this great gift of sexuality without any sinful sexual feeling. As I explained above, sexual feelings do not need to be sinful in order to exist; they can exist in a pure way within marriage. They don’t need to have as object to fulfill a carnal need, but to express the highest degree of covenantal love between the couple. Of course, a depraved man cannot understand these things as he doesn’t have the spiritual mind of Christ, therefore Mormons and all cultists cannot understand these things. Mormons cannot understand how our bodies are not sinful as such.
This is the kind of truths that cultists corrupt to their own destruction! As you can see, Stephen and others are deceived and misled by such misunderstandings, and live their lives in bondage to sin.
Stephen continues, and wants to give a biblical authority to his ridiculous doctrine:
God even asked Adam who had told him he was naked, demanding to know if they had partaken of the fruit. This clearly indicates God knew they were not capable of ever gaining sexual knowledge unless they partook of said fruit.
God didn’t ask Adam because He saw him having sexual intercourse with Eve, but because Adam feared God because of his nakedness. So how did you put this relation between sexual knowledge and the question of God?? There is no relation. Please, show me where you read about “sexual knowledge” in this whole passage:
“And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah Elohim, in the midst of the trees of the garden. And Jehovah Elohim called to Man, and said to him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I feared, because I am naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou art naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee not to eat?” (Genesis 3:7-11)
Please, show me where you read anything about sexual intercourse??!! Usually those whose mind and imaginations are corrupted by pornography imagine a sexual intercourse in such a passage where absolutely nothing is said about any sexual intercourse. Besides, did you notice that Adam and Eve were not even naked in the sense that corrupted minds understand this passage?! They had on them some aprons made of fig leaves! And the text says that they feared because of nakedness! The verb to fear is used here, and not shame! Why is that? Why couldn’t the fig leaves hide the shame of their nakedness? And why did they fear?
In fact, when Adam ate from the forbidden tree, he died the same moment, just as God clearly warned him. This death was the spiritual death, i.e. the spiritual separation from God. And with this spiritual death also came the physical death that began at that moment. So this nakedness is not just a physical nakedness as depraved minds imagine, but it is also a spiritual nakedness. This was the rebellion of man against his Creator Lord… And immediately after this rebellion, man became self-righteous!! He wanted to justify himself with his works just as cultists and all false religions teach their followers to do… Read with me:
“Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.” (Genesis 3:7)
This nakedness is not just a physical nakedness. In fact, if sin didn’t enter to the world, we would continue to live naked, because we would not have sinful lust because of it. You see here that their eyes were opened to sin, so they began to feel the shame of sin in their hearts, and so they wanted to cover their shameful sinfulness. To cover that, what did they choose? Did they choose for example to ask God how to solve this problem? Did they begin to think about the death sentence that was upon them now? No. They chose to cover themselves with fig leaves… Fig leaves and the fruit of the ground in the Bible represent human good works by which they try to please God, the works that are offered from the ground, from man, to God, and that meaning began from this first incidence with Adam and Eve who wanted to cover their sinfulness with their good works. After them Cain also wanted to present to God an offering from the fruit of the earth, but God refused that offering (see Genesis 4:3-5). And this is what self-righteousness is, and all cults and religions follow this principle of self-righteousness. Religions and cults tell you to try to make yourself right with God by having good intentions, doing good works, helping the poor, praying very much, to do this and that… but they never tell you to solve the problem of spiritual death, because they cannot offer you a solution! They even avoid this subject of spiritual death, just as you see Mormons do. God said that the result of eating from the forbidden tree would be to surely die, and that’s what happened: we all died spiritually. This means that we were separated from God spiritually, and we became the enemies of God by our wills and rebellious hearts. The solution for this spiritual death is not by covering it with dead works that look good, like Adam and Eve did by covering themselves with fig leaves, but by paying that punishment of death. So the solution would be either that Adam and Eve would die eternally, and thus no solution (and that would be just, as God said that death would be the result of their sin), or that someone else pay the punishment in the place of man, and thus man can be saved by putting himself under the authority of this substitute who will pay the debt in his place. Now, we saw that Adam and Eve didn’t even want to think about all this, and they chose good works instead, they chose self-righteousness, and so they covered themselves with fig leaves. And this is what Satan wants; he wants to turn your eyes from the necessity of a solution for the problem of spiritual death and from the necessity to be born again, and so he encourages you to be religious and self-righteous, to try to do your best to do good works and to please God… etc etc… But the essential for Satan is that you never think about your state of spiritual death and separation from God. And the blood of Jesus is the solution to that problem. Look how:
After Adam and Eve made for themselves covering with fig leaves and chose self-righteousness and good works to cover their sinfulness, look what happened:
“They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”” (Genesis 3:8-10)
Oh? Did they not plan to cover themselves with those leaves? Then why do they still find themselves naked when God calls them? God called man, and man told him that he hid himself because he was naked and was what? Ashamed? NO! He was AFRAID!!! Man was afraid because he was spiritually sinful and naked before God, even with all those fig leaves on his body!! So good works didn’t serve to cover his sinfulness before God. And look what was the solution of God:
“The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.” (Genesis 3:21)
This means that God sacrificed an animal, and made garments for Adam and Eve from the skin of that animal. By this He gave Adam and Eve the first Gospel message: that another should die to pay the debt of death that was upon them because of their sin. And with this sign, He also made it clear that this animal substitute was only a shadow or a symbol for the true Substitute Jesus Christ who would be born from a virgin woman, and would pay the debt of our sins by dying on the cross. Here is the promise of God while He was talking to Satan:
“And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.” (Genesis 3:15)
Jesus Christ is the only One who could bruise the head of Satan. And that’s what He did. To be saved from the fear of eternal death in Hell and from the judgment that comes on your sins, you need to put your whole trust in this Substitute who has paid the debt of our sins and place yourself under His authority as your Lord, and NEVER put your trust on any good work that you may or any human may do! You cannot save yourself, and no one can save you. Only Jesus Christ has paid the debt of our sins, and only Jesus Christ could bruise the head of Satan, so only Jesus Christ can save you. We have seen how it is impossible to be saved by believing in the false christ of Mormonism in our article: Should we associate with the Mormons?
So you are deceived by your teachers concerning the nakedness of Adam and Eve and its relation with the gift of sexuality.
Stephen continues to explain his funny theory:
In that state of innocence, Adam and Eve could not have produced children, period.
The Bible says they could. Period. It’s GOD who puts the period, and not you, poor human! God told us that animals could reproduce without having to feel shame for their nakedness and without eating from the forbidden tree.
Stephen continues and says:
Until they had made the decision to break the commandment of abstaining from the fruit, their bodies did not furnish them knowledge of procreation. This knowledge did not and could not have come naturally to them while in the Garden, no matter how long their stay lasted.
We have seen that it could. Your imaginations have no basis in the truth.
Second and most obvious, let us use simple reason. How could Adam and Eve engaging in sexual intercourse—in the bounds of matrimony—be counted as sin if reproduction was a direct commandment of God? Would He command us to commit sin, especially sexual sin?
Great! So how do you imagine God putting Adam and Eve in a situation in which they were obliged to choose between two sins? You say they would either disobey the commandment of fruitfulness or the commandment not to eat from the forbidden tree. Why are you not consistent? Do you not fear when you accuse God of this sinful situation?
Stephen then quotes a human to endorse his funny theory:
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are that they might have joy.” (2 Nephi 2:22-25)
And is this the book of human false teachings that you follow? We have seen how this teaching that “Adam fell that men might be” is a purely false teaching that misunderstands the biblical doctrine of spiritual nakedness and of the purity of marriage! Besides, this verse that you quoted is a pure pagan teaching about hedonism: “and men are that they might have joy”!! No, dear Stephen, man is not here with the object to have joy! Man is here to glorify God! We are created to God’s Glory, and we can never reach the real purpose of our existence without reaching this truth! “Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.” (Isaiah 43:7) “because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.” (Colossians 1:16) So stop following those sinful human teachings that encourage you to self-centeredness and to hedonism, and choose to live to God’s Glory and not for your carnal happiness.
Yes, man was meant to fall so he would have a mortal probation to prove his loyalty to God by overcoming the will of the flesh and submitting to God’s will.
Stop accusing your Creator of this sin. Wake up!
Then Stephen said:
But it had to be man’s choice with no excuses for failure, blaming God for putting him in such a sinful world.
You have really lost your references… This world was not sinful before Adam fell in sin…
And then he says:
And yes, we look at Adam and Eve with great appreciation rather than with disdain. Mortality is a good thing. It was God’s plan.
Yes, God was not surprised by our sin, as God is Omniscient. But no, God did not cause our sin in any way! And mortality is not just a physical death, but also a spiritual death which is the spiritual separation from God! Do you call this death a good thing?? The Word of God has a different thing to say about it:
“Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage.” (Hebrews 2:14-15)
As your cult has not the means to make you free of this bondage, so it even convinced you that it is something good!!…
And a new doctrine from Stephen:
Though we all come without recollection of our prior habitation, each of us accepted the terms and conditions of mortality while we resided in premortality. We will discuss that concept in Chapter Two.
This is a false teaching of the New Age Movement: human pre-existence before birth. The Bible is clear that we begin to exist when we are born:
On the sixth day of creation, God created man on earth:
“And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over every animal that moveth on the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb producing seed that is on the whole earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree producing seed: it shall be food for you; and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning — the sixth day.” (Genesis 1:27-31)
So God didn’t create Adam and Eve as spirits in Heaven, but he created them physically on earth. And the verb used here is not to make but to create (Hebrew: Bara). To create means to make something exist from non-existence. So Adam and Eve didn’t exist before God created them.
“And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7)
You see how Adam existed from the dust of the ground, and he didn’t exist before that, and that he received his breath of life from God’s creative work (“breathed into his nostrils”), and not from a pre-existing soul.
And Paul explains this fact; he says:
“Thus also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. But that which is spiritual [was] not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual: the first man out of [the] earth, made of dust; the second man, out of heaven. Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust; and such as the heavenly [one], such also the heavenly [ones]. And as we have borne the image of the [one] made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly [one].” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49)
In this passage, the Apostle explains all what I explained above, and more: he says the first Man is Adam, and the last Adam is Jesus Christ. This is very important to understand before you can understand the rest. So the first Man is the Adam we read about in Genesis 1, and we saw how he was created. The second Adam is NOT created, but comes from Heaven. The contrast here is between the Adam who is NOT from Heaven and who was created and did NOT pre-exist, and the last Adam who is from Heaven and pre-existed and is NOT from this earth and who is NOT created. Jesus said: “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) So man is not from above; man is not from Heaven. Jesus Christ is from Heaven. And the Apostle Paul makes it clear that the spiritual was not first, and that Adam was not the spiritual Man, but his origin was the earth; he is made of dust; he doesn’t come from Heaven. It is the SECOND Man, Jesus Christ, whose origin is Heaven. And the apostle makes it clear that we all are like Adam: we don’t pre-exist; we are of dust, just as David makes it clear: “My bones were not hidden from thee when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth.” (Psalm 139:15) Of course, David was not created in the lower parts of the earth or under the ground or something! David is explaining to us how he is from the dust, how his origin is the dust of the ground, just like Adam. He doesn’t have an origin somewhere else than the earth. And the most interesting part is that Paul makes it clear that the bearing of the image of the heavenly one is a FUTURE event.
So this dream of pre-mortality is just another form of the New Age pre-existence theory, and it was always the teaching of some pagan religions. It has zero evidence in the Word of God; on the contrary, it contradicts what the Word of God says, as we have seen.
Besides, this false teaching of pre-existence is against the Nature of God! God does not judge people for decisions that they didn’t really make! As you read, Stephen said: “Though we all come without recollection of our prior habitation, each of us accepted the terms and conditions of mortality while we resided in premortality.” What a cruel god this would be (if he existed) who makes people bear the result of a decision that they don’t remember they made! What a cruel doctrine of blind determinism! In addition to this, I would like to see how Stephen will explain to us the reason of such a wrong choice that we supposedly made in Heaven! Does he mean that we made a wrong choice and thus sinned before we were made of dust? Does this mean that Adam sinned before he was created??!! Then how does God say AFTER creating man of dust: “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) It was very good while there were bad choices and mortality in it?? What kind of a wrong opinion you have about God’s Nature, Stephen!! As I said above, this whole issue is related to the Nature of God.
Stephen finally says: “We will discuss that concept in Chapter Two.” Let’s see how he will try to justify his accusations against God in order to justify his sins…
Grace be with you!
Disciple of Jesus Christ