The God of the Old Testament?

We continue our comments on the manuscript sent to us by a Mormon called Stephen.(*)

Stephen says:

So why do the ECs and the LDSs differ when it comes to understanding the Godhead? Well, it has to do with the OT and the God of the OT.

Christians and Mormons differ when it comes to understanding the Godhead, because Christians believe what the Bible says, while sects like Mormonism believe what their deceitful leaders have taught them. We have seen this in the following articles that talk about God:

Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God?

Did Athanasius tell the Church who her God is?

And no, there is no problem with the God of the Old Testament, because He is the SAME God of the New Testament. God does not change. He told His people of the Old Covenant:

“Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah (Deuteronomy 6:4)

And:

“Unto thee it was shewn, that thou mightest know that Jehovah, he is Godthere is none other besides him.” (Deuteronomy 4:35)

He also promised about the New Covenant in the following way:

“And they shall not defile themselves any more with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; and I will save them out of all their dwelling-places wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” (Ezekiel 37:23)

So that same God, Jehovah (in Hebrew, the four letters YHWH are used for Jehovah) will be their God in the New Covenant. Note that Deuteronomy 4:35 (quoted above) says that there is NO OTHER GOD besides this God, YHWH. And the Apostle Paul declares the same truth when he quotes the God of the Old Testament saying what we read in Ezekiel 37:23:

“and what agreement of God’s temple with idols? for ye are [the] living God’s temple; according as God has said, I will dwell among them, and walk among [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people.” (2 Corinthians 6:16)

So the God of the New Testament is the same God of the Old Testament. But Mormons do not want to agree with this, because they refuse to believe what God says in the verses that we read together above and in similar passages of God’s Word.

Stephen continues:

The ECs claim Jehovah, God of the OT, and Jesus Christ are the same Being, as They share unique attributes described in both the OT and NT. This part is true.

Yes, Jesus is that one God incarnate. But the confusion of Mormons appears as we read in the New Testament how this ONE God about whom Paul was talking in 2 Corinthians 6:16 (quoted above) and who is the same God of the Old Testament is the Father… Read with me:

“yet to us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

And the Lord Jesus Himself said it while praying to the Father:

“And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)

So the only true God is the Father. This is the same God of the Old Testament as we have seen above. Now, Mormons who are not born of God cannot understand how both the Father and the Son can be this one God, because the Bible says that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:14). We have already explained in our previous articles in this series how the Father and the Son are one in substance. It will be helpful if you read the previous articles.

Stephen continues:

However, we LDSs claim, though Jesus Christ was Jehovah in His premortal life, He is the Son of Elohim, the Father of us all. Both were mentioned in the OT.

Let’s make sure we read Deuteronomy 4:35 well:

“Unto thee it was shewn, that thou mightest know that Jehovah, he is Godthere is none other besides him.” (Deuteronomy 4:35)

How is this in Hebrew? Let me just give you the concerned part in Hebrew:

“Unto thee it was shewn, that thou mightest know that Jehovah, he is Elohimthere is none other besides him.” (Deuteronomy 4:35)

So Elohim and Jehovah is the same Being… And as you see, Deuteronomy 4:35 says that there is NO OTHER GOD besides Jehovah, who is Elohim. We have also seen some details about this above.

Yes, indeed, Mormons (LDSs) claim that Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim who is the Father, thus giving a wrong non-biblical meaning to the expression “Son of God”, but that’s just what they claim. We have seen that they have no biblical basis for that claim, as Jehovah, who they say is Jesus Christ, is Elohim. Jehovah and Elohim are not two Beings, but the same Being: Jehovah, HE IS Elohim, and there is no other God besides Him.

Note: If you want to know what the expression “Son of God” means, you can read the following article: What does the word “Messiah” mean? Who is the Messiah?

Then Stephen gives us a long speculative and subjective explanation of how Jehovah and Elohim are two different Beings and yet Jehovah may refer to both Beings (which is a contradiction), although we have seen above how he contradicts the clear evidence of Scripture. Let’s see the important parts of his subjective explanation where he makes some serious comprehension errors:

Each time the Tetragrammaton—hereafter abbreviated as ‘(Tetra)’ in Scripture quotes—appears in the OT, ECs presume it represents “Jehovah.” This is not always accurate, as sometimes the consonants refer to “Elohim” (Who we claim is God the Father) and other times to “Jehovah” (Who we claim is God the Son or Jesus Christ in His premortal existence.)

By “Tetragrammaton” he refers to the Name of God as written in the manuscripts (YHWH); we have seen this above. Although this Name was written in the manuscripts, and yet the Jews didn’t pronounce it, as they feared to transgress the commandment (cf. Exodus 20:7). Each time they read the Scripture and come to this Name, they read it YHWH (as that’s what is written), but they pronounce it Adonai (the Lord) or Elohim (God). If you want to see an example of this, you can read here the Hebrew text of Psalm 23 where the Name YHWH (יְהוָ֥ה) clearly appears, and you can listen here to a Jew reading this Psalm, and see how he simply pronounces the written YHWH as Adonai. Now, one of the reasons for pronouncing it Elohim, besides the fear of transgressing the Law, was to tell the world that they believe YHWH is the only true Elohim while all others are false gods, as we have seen above (“Jehovah, he is Elohim (Deuteronomy 4:35). But Stephen’s argument aims to contradict this fact… Now look what Stephen Douglas says: he says that this Name may sometimes refer to Elohim (who according to him is God the Father) and other times to Jehovah (who according to him is God the Son). But has he not said above that Jehovah is the Son?… What a confusion!… Wherever we meet the Name YHWH it is always that same Name which is rendered in English as Jehovah, but which is pronounced by the Jews as Adonai or Elohim for the reasons mentioned above.

Then he quotes:

In Smith’s (no relation to Joseph Smith) Comprehensive Dictionary to the Bible, not the current abbreviated version, under the article Jehovah, we find, “The true pronunciation of this name [Yehovah] by which God was known to the Hebrews, has been entirely lost, the Jews themselves scrupulously avoiding every mention of it, and substituting in its stead one or other of the words with whose proper vowel-points it may happen to be written [Adonai, Lord or Elohim, God].”

What has been entirely lost according to Smith?? Is it the Name itself in the manuscripts? Or is it just the pronunciation? Indeed, it’s the pronunciation, and not the Name itself… So each time you read YHWH in the manuscripts, it is that Name which is rendered Jehovah in English, and nothing else. And thus Stephen Douglas and his Mormon teachers have no reason to say that this Name refers to two beings.

Then Stephen adds:

Jehovah is therefore Christ’s premortal appellative in the OT, not the Father’s.

Well, we have seen above how Jehovah and Elohim are the same Being, and how the Apostles and Jesus Himself told us that this one God is the Father. Thus you see how much Mormons are confused, because they have believed the lies of deceivers who contradict God’s Word.

~

Now that we have shown the confusion of this Mormon, we pass to study his errors in the understanding of the biblical verses that he brings as evidences for his theory; he says:

In Isaiah 48, one Lord identifies Himself as the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel in verse seventeen, saying, “Thus saith the LORD,” in the Tetragrammaton. He speaks from the beginning of the chapter. His first reference to another LORD (Tetra) is found in verse two where He says, “The LORD of hosts is his name.” The Lord continues to describe Israel’s apostate behavior and then, from verse nine, He describes how He will defer His anger for his own sake. He then calls on Israel, identifying Himself as the Savior Jesus Christ in His premortal life by saying, “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: . . .” He then commands Israel, “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was (‘the beginning’), there am I: and now the Lord GOD (Tetra), and his Spirit, hath sent me.”

Reminder: The Bible clearly teaches that we have ONE Lord, and not many lords, as this Mormon believes:

“concerning then the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in [the] world, and that there [is] no other God save one. For and if indeed there are [those] called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, (as there are gods many, and lords many,) yet to us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.” (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

So there is only ONE Lord, in contrast to the many false lords that the world has.

Now, let’s see how this interpretation of Isaiah 48 that Stephen gives is wrong:

In Isaiah 48, the one who speaks is Jehovah, the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel, who is the only true God and there is no other God besides Him (as we have seen above). However, He doesn’t speak directly to His people, but through His prophet Isaiah who is an Old Testament image of Christ. It’s really sad that our Mormon friend doesn’t know this. Indeed, whenever the New Testament Book quotes what God says in the Old Testament Book, we meet expressions like “spoken through the prophet” (ex.: Matthew 1:22, Matthew 2:15, Matthew 2:17, Matthew 13:35, etc. )… So it’s Isaiah who quotes the one God, Jehovah, in Isaiah 48:1, and in verse 17 this same prophet Isaiah says:

“Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] Jehovah thy God, who teacheth thee for [thy] profit, who leadeth thee in the way that thou shouldest go.” (Isaiah 48:17)

So it was Jehovah, the only true God, who was talking all the time through His prophet Isaiah. And here, in verse 17, Isaiah says “Thus saith Jehovah”, reminding us that these are not his own words, but the Word of God.

In verse 2, this same God of Israel is not referring to another God of Israel, because, as we have seen, there is no other God besides Him. He’s just saying ON THE MOUTH OF ISAIAH that the Name of this one God of Israel is Jehovah of hosts. Remember that God is saying all this through His prophet Isaiah. Then when God says that He will defer His anger and save His people for His own sake, He really means it. There is no other God besides Him, and He does all that good for His Name’s sake. Then this same one God says: “Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread abroad the heavens: I call unto them, they stand up together.” (Isaiah 48:13) Well, our confused friend says this is Jesus, and that it is Jesus who has laid the foundation of the earth and has spread abroad the heavens… But Genesis 1:1 says:

“In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1)

Has not Stephen said above that Elohim is the Father? Then how does he now say that it is not the Father who has created everything, but Jesus Christ?? Does not Genesis 1:1 say that it is the Father (Elohim) who has created everything?… And the New Testament Book clearly says that it is God who has created all things through His Son Jesus Christ (cf. passages like Hebrews 1:1-2).

And the most interesting part is that the Bible says that Jehovah created all things ALONE! There was NO one with Him:

“Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I [am] Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread forth the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24).

But, as I said above, many passages of the New Testament (like Hebrews 1:1-2) say that it is the God of the Old Testament that created all things THROUGH His Son… Therefore, our Mormon friend has to explain to us how he thinks that Jesus created all things all alone when the New Testament clearly says that God created all things through His Son… Either the Father and the Son are ONE Being called Jehovah, and thus this one Being who is Jehovah could say that He created all things ALL ALONE and BY HIMSELF, or there is a contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament… Which option is true? We believe that God does not contradict Himself, so He is not contradicting Himself in the New Testament; thus the Father and the Son are that one God who is Jehovah. For Mormons, these passages make a dilemma from which they can’t get out, because false teachings cannot agree with God’s Word.

Then in Isaiah 48 this same one God says through the prophet Isaiah who is an image of Christ in the Old Testament:

“Come near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit.” (Isaiah 48:16)

First note that it is Jehovah AND His Spirit who have sent Him, and yet the verb is in singular: “hath sent me” (Hebrew: Shelachani)… This is an Old Testament example where we see how Jehovah and His Spirit are ONE Being, as a singular verb is used about Them.

Secondly, note that it is Jehovah who has sent Him. We have seen above how Stephen admitted that Jehovah is Jesus Christ… So how could Jesus Christ send Himself??

Isaiah is an old Testament image of Christ. Through Isaiah, God declares that He came to His people through His Word, Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; God has always talked to His people through the ONE AND ONLY Mediator, His Word. We see this in the instances where we read about “The Angel of the Lord” in many passages of the Old Testament. That Angel of the Lord is the Word of God, Jesus Christ, before His incarnation. Indeed, since the beginning, God has always communicated with His creation through His Word. First, He created the whole universe through His Word, then He came and spoke through His Word to His prophets and through them to His people (read in the Old Testament expressions like “Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying in Isaiah 38:4 — the Word of the Lord came to the prophet and said…) In the last days, He spoke to us through this same Word incarnated to whom all the prophets pointed as His earthly images. This is how Jehovah and His Spirit has sent Him: He is the Word of God, so God has sent Him.

In the very next chapter of Isaiah, we read a similar passage:

“Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye peoples from afar. Jehovah hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword, he hath concealed me under the shadow of his hand, and he hath made me a polished shaft: in his quiver hath he hidden me. And he said unto me, Thou art my servant, Israel, in whom I will glorify myself. — And I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and in vain; nevertheless my judgment is with Jehovah, and my work with my God. And now, saith Jehovah, that formed me from the womb to be his servant, that I should bring Jacob again to him; (though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorified in the eyes of Jehovah, and my God shall be my strength;) — and he saith, It is a small thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel; I have even given thee for a light of the nations, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:1-6)

In this passage, it is clearly Isaiah who is speaking as an image of Christ who is the Servant of God. It is not Isaiah who is God’s Servant Israel, but Jesus (we will see this below). It is not in Isaiah that God will be glorified, but through His Servant Jesus Christ (we will see this below). It is not Isaiah who will bring Jacob again to God (i.e. who will reconcile Jacob with God). It is not Isaiah who will restore the preserved of Israel, but Jesus. It is not Isaiah who is given by God as a light of the nations, but Jesus Christ. It is not Isaiah who is the Salvation of God unto the end of the earth, but Jesus Christ. Isaiah is talking only as the image of the Christ. I guess you began to note the error of our confused Mormon friend…

a. Jesus is God’s Servant Israel, and not Isaiah: Israel as the son of God was an image of Christ who is the Son of God by Nature, the true Israel. Thus Matthew says at the occasion of God calling Jesus back from Egypt: “And he was there until the death of Herod, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by [the] Lord through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15) This was said by the prophet about how God called Israel out of Egypt: “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” (Hosea 11:1) So Israel was an image of the true Israel who is Jesus Christ. As Isaiah also was an image of Christ in the Old Testament, so through him the Christ speaks about Himself. Indeed, after two chapters, the prophet speaks about this same Servant of God, Israel (Jesus Christ), saying: “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and be lifted up, and be very high.” (Isaiah 52:13). And the prophet continues until the end of Isaiah 53 describing how this Servant of God (Jesus Christ) will be killed for our sins and will rise again. So this is not Isaiah, but Christ who is Jehovah is speaking through Isaiah about Himself.

b. God is not truly and fully glorified in Isaiah, but in His Son, Jesus Christ: This is what Jesus Himself said: “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (John 14:13)

In addition to these two points, as we have seen above, only Jesus Christ is the one who will restore the preserved of Israel, and who is the light of the nations, and who is the Salvation of God unto the end of the earth. The Bible is clear about these facts.

So in Isaiah 48, it is the ONE GOD who is speaking, and not two Beings. We see in Isaiah 48 three inseparable PERSONS(*), and not three separate Beings. We have seen how Jehovah and His Spirit are one, and a singular verb is used about them, and we have seen how the same God, Jehovah, speaks through His Word as the One sent by this one God, Jehovah. Now, this confuses our Mormon friend, because he doesn’t understand how God can be one and yet three inseparable and distinct Persons. This was explained to him in our article Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God? Reading that article again will be helpful.

Next, Stephen expresses his confusion:

Not only does one LORD (Tetra) speak in the third person about another Lord GOD (Tetra) in verse sixteen, He cites how He was sent by both the Lord GOD and His Spirit, separating Himself from and submitting His will to both the Other Members of the Godhead. In fact, how can One send Himself? And, as already stated, He immediately thereafter identifies Himself with the Tetragrammaton in the following verse.

As you see, this confused Mormon cannot understand how God speaks through His prophet who is an image of the Christ. He also doesn’t understand how God can be three INSEPARABLE Persons, and how two of those Persons could send (verb in singular) the third Person, thus the same God is sent in the Person of the Son. These are truths that are above the head of cultists who don’t have the Spirit of God, as we have seen.

Stephen has the same misunderstanding in Isaiah 50, so he says about it:

“Thus saith the LORD (Tetra), Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? . . . (picking up again at verse four) The Lord GOD (Tetra) hath given me (‘the LORD’ in verse one) the tongue of the learned, . . .”

The same explanation as above: Two inseparable Persons, and not two separate Beings, speak through the prophet.

And here is Stephen’s confused conclusion:

Again we see a reference to two Lords. The former “LORD,” Jehovah, recognizes as His source of strength the latter “Lord GOD.” The Latter, by process of elimination, is Elohim, because He is of greater strength than the Former.

1. Stephen previously said that Elohim is the Father while Jehovah is the Son… Well, in this text (Isaiah 50) in BOTH cases the Name Jehovah is used, and not Elohim…

2. This prophecy is about the Son incarnate, and of course the Father who was not incarnate is greater than a human, Jesus Christ. But this doesn’t mean that They are two Beings; this means that They are two Persons, and that only one of those two Persons was incarnated.

3. We have already seen how we have only ONE Lord, and not two Lords, as this confused Mormon imagines.

And he continues:

Another example of Tetragrammaton appearing twice is found in Jeremiah 23:5,6 and 33:14-16. The first LORD is God the Father talking about His Son, Jesus Christ. He then calls His Son, Jehovah-tsidkenu, rendered, “the LORD our righteousness.” Both LORDs rendered as “Jehovah” upholds the Athanasian Creed of being separate, but of the same substance, but is not supported by the usage of third person by the first LORD.

As you see, he is continuing in the same confusion as above. In Jeremiah 23:5-6, the one who is talking is the prophet Jeremiah, and he is telling us about what the LORD said. And the LORD (Jehovah) foretells that the Messiah who will come is the LORD (Jehovah) Himself. God is saying that the Messiah is God; that simple.

And look at the ignorance of this Mormon about the Athanasian Creed: he says that his interpretation of those passages from Jeremiah upholds (supports) the Athanasian Creed of being separate, but of the same substance. Well, the Athanasian Creed does NOT say that the Father and the Son are separate; it says they are distinct but NOT separate. We have seen all these things in our articles Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God? and Did Athanasius tell the Church who her God is? Besides this, does Stephen really mean it when he says that this supports the teaching that says that the Father and the Son are of the same substance? Has he not previously tried to prove that they are not one in substance but only in purpose?? Read the following article to see what I mean: Is the Church one in purpose or in substance? But, as you see, this Name “Jehovah” used about BOTH the Father and the Son obliges Stephen to confess that this upholds the teaching that says that both are of the same substance, i.e. They both are the SAME God. And note his subtle method to deceive the reader: he makes you think that both “LORD”s were rendered as “Jehovah”, but that in fact they should not… As if there were any manuscript that renders any of those “LORD”s as Elohim, as Stephen would wish… The truth of God’s Word is so clear that no liar can hide it under the darkness of his false teachings: Both the Father and the Son are clearly called “Jehovah”, and the Bible clearly says that Jehovah is HIMSELF Elohim, and that there is no other God besides Jehovah. There is no way to flee from this clear biblical truth.

I don’t see why Stephen says that this is not supported by the usage of third person by God. Is not God three inseparable PERSONS?? Then cannot One of Them speak about the Other in the third person? Besides this, this is not even the case of one Person speaking about another Person in the present, as God is speaking about the coming Messiah and is telling us about who He is. If a king tells you about how in the future he will come to your house in the form of a peasant, does this mean that he is speaking about another being?? Let’s say the king, called Basil, tells you: “Here is a truth that you should know and which will be revealed in short: days are coming when a son of a peasant will visit your house, and his name will be called Basil the Peasant”. Does this mean that this king is telling you about another being, and not about himself? Indeed, he is using the third person, but he is talking about himself. Besides this, I wonder if Stephen thinks that there are two Beings called “Son”… Why do I say this? Well, see how Jesus talks about the Son in the third person: “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:8) and The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matthew 26:24) The Gospel Accounts are full of such statements from Jesus! Now, as Jesus speaks about the Son of Man in the third person, then does this mean that it is not Jesus Himself who is this Son of Man?? Jesus even spoke about the Messiah in the third person, although He Himself is the Messiah: “And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus demanded of them, saying, What think ye concerning the Christ? whose son is he? They say to him, David’s. He says to them, How then does David in Spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand until I put thine enemies under thy feet? If therefore David call him Lord, how is he his son?” (Matthew 22:41-45) As you see, Jesus speaks about the Christ in the third person, but this doesn’t mean that He is speaking about another Being and not about Himself. This is indeed the way God speaks in the Old Testament in many instances, but Stephen Douglas is ignorant about this fact, because his false teachers have taught him otherwise…

As you see, the whole argument of Stephen fell down! He assumed that whenever God uses the third person in the Old Testament then that should be another Being than Himself. If we take his logic, then Jesus was talking about another Being as the Christ and as the Son of Man, which of course is not true…

And Stephen continues his confused remarks:

In Zechariah, we find other examples of two Lords in Tetragrammaton. In chapter three, verse two, we read, “And the LORD (Tetra) said to Satan, The LORD (Tetra) rebuke thee, O Satan: even the LORD (Tetra) that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee . . .” The “LORD” spoke in the third person singular while referring to another “LORD.” Any claim He was speaking of Himself in third person has no merit. Not only did the God of Israel speak in first person throughout the OT, whenever an angelic messenger or a prophet quoted the Lord, it was also rendered in first person, a direct quote so nothing would be lost in the transition from first to third person. This explains how Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, can speak in first person when he is actually quoting the Father. As will be referenced in Chapter Two, even a resurrected prophet speaks in first person as First Person Representative of God. (See Rev. 22:1-9.)

We have seen above how all this is wrong: Jesus spoke about Himself in the third person, but this doesn’t mean that He was talking about another Being. Here too, in Zechariah, the ONE God is speaking through His prophet.

We continue to quote the confused remarks of Stephen:

In Zechariah 10:12, we find, “And I will strengthen them in the LORD (Tetra), and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD (Tetra).” Again, one “LORD” in first person used the third person singular to refer to another “LORD.”

Again, if God speaks in the third person about Himself, this doesn’t mean that He is not speaking about Himself. Jesus spoke about Himself in the third person, as we have seen.

We continue reading Stephen:

As we have seen, there are several examples of two LORDs in the OT.

No, we have not seen this, but we have seen the exact opposite: That Jehovah is Elohim, and that there is no other God besides Him. So Mormons are very confused, and they are denying the truth of God’s Word because of the lies of a false prophet, Joseph Smith. Dear Mormons, you have been deceived into believing wrong things; please, wake up and come to the truth of God’s Word. You have been deceived to be polytheists, while the Scripture clearly says that Jehovah is ONE Jehovah; He is Elohim, and there is no other God besides Him.

Then Stephen gives us the New Testament proofs that Jesus is Jehovah, the Son, who was sent by Jehovah, the Father. But his confusion is that these Two are NOT the same Being just because one sent the other… We have seen above that this is not true.

Then Stephen passes to give us some Old Testament proofs that Jesus Christ is Jehovah:

The Tetragrammaton is also found in Zechariah 12 where the LORD (Tetra) is being quoted the entire chapter. Then in verse 10 we read, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced . . .” (The NIV renders “me” as “him.”) A close look at John 19:37 reveals plainly who was pierced. It uses the same third person pronoun, him, found in the Septuagint, the OT text available to the Apostles. However, the original Uncial and the Masoretic text both have the first person pronoun, me.

Indeed, in such passages, God (Jehovah) reveals to us that the Messiah is God Himself (Jehovah), as we have seen above. This in no way means that God is two Beings; this means that God has revealed that He will be incarnated in the Person of His Son who is not a separate Person or a separate Being, but He is the same one God, one Person inseparable in substance from the other Persons of the one God, Jehovah. We have seen all this in details in our previous studies, so it will be helpful to read them.

Then Stephen Douglas gives us a long statement which is not supported by any evidence of Scripture:

Jehovah (Christ) was given the responsibility and task of being Creator, Judge, Redeemer, and God of this earth by His and our Father, Elohim. Christ is the God of this earth and created everything in it, including our physical bodies. This explains why He is called “the everlasting father” in Isaiah 9:6. Christ (Jehovah) is the father of our physical bodies just as His Father (Elohim) is—as explained in Hebrews 12:9—the father of our spirits. But this does not mean the Son is “consubstantial” with the Father. Though They share all power, Christ is given it by His Father.

We have seen how it was Elohim who created all things by His Word, and we have seen how this one God is Jehovah who is Elohim, and there is no other God besides Him. The Creator is not a created being, or else He would not be the Creator, because by definition the Creator makes things exist from nothing. To understand this truth, you need to read the following article: In the beginning God created… And indeed, the Bible makes it clear that God is God from eternity past to eternity future:

“Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God.” (Psalm 90:2)

We have seen how the Bible clearly says that there is only one God. And the same Bible says that Jesus Christ is this one God:

“In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

“but as to the Son, Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)

And there are many passages that we could quote here. To see a study of the Deity of Christ, you can read our series: The Lord JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God — Question and answer. And as there is only one true God, and as the Father is this one true God, then of course the Son is consubstancial with the Father, or else how is He this one God, Jehovah? And of course all things are given to the Son by the Father, because He is the Son of Man: it is the Son who was incarnated, and not the Father. But an important key to avoid a misunderstanding of this truth is a right answer to the following question: Did God lose all those powers when He gave them to the Son? Of course not, because the Father and the Son are one God! For instance: Did God lose His Glory when He gave it to the Son? Of course not! That’s the heart of the biblical truth of God: He is by Nature three co-eternal and co-equal inseparable Persons. The three Persons share the SAME Glory, and yet each of them has the WHOLE Glory. As the Athanasian Creed has put it: “But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.” (Emphasis added) And: “Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.” (Emphases added) We have seen this biblical truth in our previous articles in this series of answers to this Mormon document, so you can read it there with all the biblical evidences. And as the Father didn’t lose anything of all what He gave to the Son, therefore the following passage has a sense:

“And if ye invoke as Father him who, without regard of persons, judges according to the work of each, pass your time of sojourn in fear” (1 Peter 1:17)

As you see, the Father is the Judge. But Mormons cannot understand what it means that the Father does not judge anyone but has given the judgment to the Son. Actually, that doesn’t mean that the Father ceased to be the Judge, but that just as He created all things through His Son, He also judges all humans through His Son. Therefore Jesus explains how this makes it inevitable that all honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father:

“for neither does the Father judge any one, but has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son, honours not the Father who has sent him.” (John 5:22-23)

In this passage, Jesus was not saying that the Father has ceased to judge! Actually, He was saying the exact opposite! He was saying that the Father does not judge anyone as one Person all alone, but He judges through His Son to whom He gave all judgment. The sad state of Mormons and all sects is that they misunderstand Christ because they dismiss the context. Indeed, the context says that BOTH the Father and the Son do the SAME work, and thus the Father doesn’t lose any glory that He gives to the Son! Let’s read it together:

“But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto [i.e. until now] and I work. For this therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only violated the sabbath, but also said that God was his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus therefore answered and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing: for whatever things he does, these things also the Son does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens [them], thus the Son also quickens whom he will: for neither does the Father judge any one, but has given all judgment to the Son” (John 5:17-22)

As you can see, this statement about all judgment given to the Son came in a context where Jesus was explaining how He can’t do anything but whatever He sees the Father doing! The Son does exactly the same thing that the Father does. So the Son is the Judge, because the Father is the Judge, and not because the Father ceased to be the Judge. That’s in fact what Jesus explained after a few lines, but Mormons do not want to read that part: “and has given him authority to execute judgment [also], because he is Son of man.” (John 5:27) “Because He is Son of Man”… This is what I explained above: He is the One who was sent to save us, and He is the Messiah King(*), so He is the Judge. And He explained this more fully when He said: “I cannot do anything of myself; as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my will, but the will of him that has sent me.” (John 5:30) And He later explains this in another way saying: “And if also I judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who has sent me.” (John 8:16) So it is the Father who judges through His Son, because it is all what the Father does that the Son does, and the Son cannot do anything of Himself, but all according to the Father’s Will. Do you see how a blind man can understand the exact opposite of what God is saying when he doesn’t want to know the truth and when he despises the context of God’s Word? One becomes a Mormon when he doesn’t know all these truths of God’s Word, and thus he gets deceived by those who come to him and quote for him passages like the one where it is said that all judgment was given to the Son; he doesn’t know what that means and he doesn’t know the concerned passages that explain this truth, so he is deceived.

So, dear Mormons, do not just read “he doesn’t judge” and stop there, but read the context to understand what God is really saying. For instance, if you continue in this manner of reading, you will also have to say that not even the Son is the Judge! For look what He says: “For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.” (John 3:17) “Ye judge according to the flesh, I judge no one.” (John 8:15) “and if any one hear my words and do not keep [them], I judge him not, for I am not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world. He that rejects me and does not receive my words, has him who judges him: the word which I have spoken, that shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:47-48) Do these passages mean that the Son is not the Judge? Not at all!

The Son is the Word of God, and He is obedient to the Father’s Will, because it is the Father whose Word He is.

Thus you see how Stephen’s argument has no biblical basis, but on the contrary God’s Word opposes all what he says. Stephen is a deceived Mormon who is trying to deceive others just as he was deceived.

Then Stephen Douglas goes back to his ignorant statement:

Jesus did say, “My Father and I are one.” (John 10:30) Did He mean one in substance? He also prayed to the Father, “That they (his apostles) may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee . . . that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:21-23) Again, this idiomatic phraseology expresses a oneness of purpose, not of substance.

We have seen a detailed reply to this false subjective conclusion in our previous article: Is the Church one in purpose or in substance? Read it and see how Stephen is in error.

And Stephen continues:

The Savior told Philip, “[H]e that hath seen me hath seen the Father;” before He went on to explain, not speaking for Himself, “the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:8-14) Again, Christ is the First-Person Representative of the Father, and as such, speaks, acts, and represents the Father as though the Father were personally doing these things. This does not mean he is the Father.

Of course this doesn’t mean that Christ is the Father! The Bible does not teach that the Son is the Father! So this Mormon is using a strawman argument against us. The Son is not the Father, but He is the same God as the Father, as we have seen previously. The Father dwells in Christ means that Christ is the same God as the Father. Actually, this Mormon has no interest in quoting for you the whole context. Read by yourselves: “Believest thou not that I [am] in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words which I speak to you I do not speak from myself; but the Father who abides in me, he does the works.” (John 14:10) For this Mormon, the Father being in the Son means that the Son is the First-Person Representative of the Father; well, I would like to ask him: And what does the Son being in the Father mean? Jesus clearly said that He is in the Father! Does this mean that the Father is the First-Person Representative of the Son?? Does this mean that the Father acts as a representative of the Son?? Do you see how deep are the darkness and the blindness?.. Actually, the Bible explains how the Son is the true image of God and how no one has ever seen God, and how it is only the Son who reveals Him fully (cf. Hebrews 1:1-3 and John 1:18).

It is to be noted that Jesus is the ONLY-BEGOTTEN (unique in Nature) Son of God, but Mormons say that He is just one of the sons of God… This also is one of the important evidences of the Mormons’ ignorance of the Nature of God. While the Church was never ignorant about the Nature of God. Read the following article: Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God?

And Stephen continues his subtle attacks on the Bible:

There is only one place in the NT where a phrase specifically supports the Trinity doctrine. In First John 5:7, we read, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” The problem is, this last emboldened phrase does not exist in any of the ancient manuscripts.

Indeed, this passage seems to have been originally a margin note that was later introduced by error into the text of the Bible. But the Church knew the Nature of God even without having this text in the first century, because this same truth is already expressed in other ways in other passages of Scripture. For instance, we have seen how Jesus said that He and the Father are one. But even if this margin note was really a part of the scriptural text, Mormons would argue that it means oneness in purpose and not in substance. That’s why I said this is just a subtle attack on Scripture. We have seen how the Bible clearly says that God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and how these three Persons are not separate Persons, although they are distinct. To read a full study of the Bible concerning this truth, you need to read a previous article in this series of answers to this Mormon manuscript entitled: Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God?

And finally, Stephen Douglas makes an ignorant and subjective conclusion to this chapter one which is about the Nature of God:

As I have documented, the Father and the Son are not “one” physically, but in other things. In light of the above cited verses and the overall documentation this chapter has given to more than adequately qualify Christ’s premortal role as Jehovah in the OT, is it not clear the Father and the Son, Who hold Together all the power “in heaven and in earth,” are not only separate and distinct Beings, but are Equal in Power, Authority, Prestige, and Glory?

“Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Philip. 2:6)

He says that he has documented that the Father and the Son are not one physically, although that was not the issue from the beginning… The Father is never said to have a body, and we were not discussing whether the Father and the Son are one physically… But Stephen tried to prove that the Father and the Son are not one in substance, and we have seen together how he failed. We have seen how there is only one God, Jehovah, who alone is the true God (Elohim), and there is no other God besides Him. We have also seen how the Father and the Son are not two distinct and separate Beings, but They are the same one Jehovah, inseparable and yet distinct Persons of the same Being, just as your spirit and your body are inseparable yet distinct. We have also seen that Jehovah God does not give His Glory to anyone else, and He has created all things all alone. So the idea that two separate Beings share the same Divine power, authority and Glory is a totally pagan idea.

The Lord Jehovah clearly said:

“To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.” (Isaiah 40:25)

“To whom will ye liken me and make me equal, or compare me, that we may be like?” (Isaiah 46:5)

So there is no other being equal to God. And yet, even Stephen Douglas himself quoted a passage that says that Jesus is equal to God: “who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God” (Philippians 2:6)

Yes, God could say that there is no other Being equal to Him, although the Son is equal to Him, because the Son is not a Being separate from God, but He is an inseparable Person of the same God Jehovah. Thus He (i.e. the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit who is the one Jehovah), could say that there is no other Being equal to Him.

But as the Son emptied Himself to save us, therefore all blind people (including the Mormons) take an opportunity of this to deny His original Nature and equality with God, because they just refuse to believe the truth. Taking the example that we brought above: As Basil the king came in the form of a peasant, then liars take an opportunity of this fact to declare that he is not the king!… Indeed, after saying that Jesus is equal to God, Paul explains how He emptied Himself to save us:

“For let this mind be in you which [was] also in Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and [that the] death of [the] cross.” (Philippians 2:5-8)

As Mormons cannot understand the real issue in the fact that God the Son emptied Himself from the equality with God and became a human under God’s Law to save us and then went back to the same Glory in which He previously was, then they can never have this mind in them which was also in Christ Jesus. How can someone imitate the true Christ who emptied Himself if he doesn’t believe that He emptied Himself?…

Thus you see that Stephen Douglas just made a subjective conclusion which he didn’t back up with any documentation; he just interpreted things according to his wishes, and then told us that those are documentations…

Thus we reached the end of Stephen’s chapter one which is about the Nature of God. As the god that a man worships determines whether he is alive or dead spiritually and whether his whole doctrine is right or wrong (“Their idols are silver and gold, The work of man’s hands.””Those who make them will become like them, Everyone who trusts in them.” — Psalm 115:4,8), so we have already proven that the whole document of Stephen Douglas is a manuscript written by a false teacher who has not the doctrine of Christ, as we showed how he doesn’t worship the true God, and his teachings are not biblical teachings, but they clearly contradict all what the Bible teaches. The next chapters will all reflect this false teaching that Stephen Douglas has about the Nature of God, because those who are dead in their sins cannot know God neither receive what comes from His Spirit, including His written Word, the Bible (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:14). So Stephen Douglas will surely have a wrong teaching about Salvation (chapter 2 of Stephen’s manuscript), and about the Word of God (chapter 3), and about the Church (chapter 4), and about the Messiah as the Priest according to the order of Melchizedek (chapter 5), and about baptism (chapter 6), and about marriage (chapter 7), and about the Lord’s Day (chapter 8), and about the gifts of the Spirit (chapter 9), and about the last days and the coming of Christ (chapter 10), and about the position that we should take before the bad fruits of false prophets such as the homicide among Mormons (chapter 11), because all these doctrines are related to the Nature of God, and a man who doesn’t have the Spirit of God by faith in the true Christ cannot know the truth about these doctrines.

Now, as this is the last article in our refutation of this Mormon document’s first chapter, I remind you of the previous articles related to this chapter one:

Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God?

The confusion about the catholic Church

Did Athanasius tell the Church who her God is?

The confusion of Mormons

Is the Church one in purpose or in substance?

Grace be with you!
Disciple of Jesus Christ

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Posted in: Religious Movements / Mormonism
This is part 12 of the series: Answer to a Mormon’s manuscript

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