We continue our comments on the manuscript sent to us by a Mormon called Stephen.(*) Click here to see the other articles in this series. You can also go to the Mormonism page to find all the articles that are in this refutation of Stephen’s document.
Two men in Pre-Existence volunteered to be savior. One was Lucifer.
Dear reader, would you not ask Stephen to show you where in the Bible it is said that Lucifer is a man? And would you not also ask him to show you where in the Bible it is said that Lucifer volunteered to be savior?? I would like to know where God asked any creature to volunteer to be savior, as if there were any other choice than God, the Creator Himself, saving us…
You notice of course how Stephen is only telling us dreams that have no back up in the Bible. As I said in previous articles, such dreams result from a false understanding of what Salvation is.
And a wrong understanding about what creation is made him say the word “Pre-Existence”… Dear Stephen, if you’re talking about pre-existence, then how was Lucifer, who is a creature, existent??… Do you think Lucifer is God?…
And Stephen continues:
His name meant, Light-bringer.
Was that his name after the Fall?? If the Fall had not happened yet, then what was Lucifer volunteering to do?… Before the Fall, sin had not entered the world, because sin entered the world through one man, Adam: “For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). So before this Fall man was not a sinner, and thus he didn’t need to be saved. I wonder what Stephen thinks Lucifer was volunteering to save us from…
Are you noticing with me how Mormons elevate Satan to some degree of dignity?…
And Stephen continues:
He would force all to obey so none would be lost.
And the reader waits in vain for Stephen to give us any biblical reference for his dreams… Where in the Bible is it said that Lucifer would try to save people by forcing all to obey so none would be lost?? Before the Fall, none was lost other than Satan and his demons, and humans didn’t need to be saved, because they had not disobeyed yet. So why did humans need to be forced to obey God? Or maybe Stephen is talking about being forced to obey Satan in order to be saved?… This is what you get when you refuse to define Salvation before you begin to theorize about it: people will not understand what you’re saying…
And Stephen continues:
His asking price? The throne of God.
Where in the Bible is it said that Lucifer asked for that as the price for Salvation? Of course, we will wait for a long time, and Stephen will not answer this, because the Bible never says such a wrong thing…
And he continues:
His sacrifice? The probable hate of many who would resent his force.
Hatred has now become a sacrifice for salvation from sin?? What a corrupted mind would invent such a false doctrine??… (By the way, I don’t need to repeat that this has NO reference in the Bible).
And Stephen continues:
Since Lucifer is the ultimate sociopath, this was no sacrifice.
And WHO asked for such a sacrifice anyway?? The Bible clearly says: “without blood-shedding there is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:22) It is impossible to have the remission of sins without the sacrifice of blood! It is clear that Mormons do not understand Salvation as this remission or forgiveness of sins, but the Bible says: “in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins“ (Colossians 1:14) So Redemption is the forgiveness of sins! How is Stephen imagining that any other sacrifice may have been asked from any creature, even if he were not sociopath?
Oh, by the way: If Lucifer was sociopath, then how is he still called Lucifer? Is not being sociopath a sin? And how would a sinner, a fallen angel, save humans from sin??
You see of course that for Stephen Salvation is not the fact of being saved from sin, but it is surely something else. We will see how his understanding is not biblical.
And he continues:
He simply cares for himself and none else.
Yeah, and he’s still Lucifer and not Satan, right?… And he is volunteering to save us…
The Other, Jehovah, the Great I AM and Lord God Almighty of the Old Testament and Jesus of Nazareth of the New, offered to do the Father’s will—to give man his Agency on earth.
1. We have seen how the Father also is that One Jehovah of the Old Testament: The God of the Old Testament?
2. We have seen how Salvation is not by anything man can do: How to be saved?
3. We have seen how man’s Agency as understood by Mormons is 180 degrees opposite to the teaching of the Bible: Sovereignty of Agency?…
I wonder where in the Bible it is said that Jesus would save us by giving us Agency on earth. The Bible is clear that our Salvation would be fulfilled by the sacrifice of the body of Christ once for all: “For blood of bulls and goats [is] incapable of taking away sins. Wherefore coming into the world he says, Sacrifice and offering thou willedst not; but thou hast prepared me a body. Thou tookest no pleasure in burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin. Then I said, Lo, I come (in [the] roll of the book it is written of me) to do, O God, thy will. Above, saying Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin thou willedst not, neither tookest pleasure in (which are offered according to the law); then he said, Lo, I come to do thy will. He takes away the first that he may establish the second; by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Hebrews 10:4-10) So Jesus did the Father’s Will by offering His body as Sacrifice for sin, and NOT by giving man his Agency on earth…
His goal? The glory be to the Father.
Yes, indeed, His Goal is that the whole Glory be to the Father. But the whole Glory is not given to the Father when we take His Sovereignty and we give it to the Agency of man, as Mormons do, but by respecting God’s Sovereignty in our Salvation. God saved us all alone, without any contribution from any creature. This is how the whole Glory is given to God.
And Stephen continues:
His eventual sacrifice on earth? Literal pain in Gethsemane that would kill any regular mortal, to be followed by the voluntary forfeiture of His life upon the cross at Calvary.
And if His life had not an eternal value, then this Sacrifice would not be able to make atonement for the sins of all humans. And we know that only God’s life has an eternal value.
Back in Pre-Existence, when all was said and done, a third of all the Father’s children followed Lucifer, being cast out of Heaven with him and to this earth without physical bodies.
In pre-existence Lucifer and the other children of God (the angels) did not exist. They were created in the six days of creation detailed in Genesis 1. And of course Stephen has no idea about the different meanings of “Heaven”, therefore he says that Satan and his angels were cast to this earth after he says that they were cast out of Heaven… It is clear that Stephen imagines that those angels are now living on earth in spiritual bodies… The confusion in his mind is great… The Bible clearly says that those angels are now in the heavenly places: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12) And of course Satan is not living on earth, but here is how he is in the heavenly places: “And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah; and Satan came also among them.” (Job 1:6)
Our Father was and is Elohim.
And we have seen how Jesus also is this same Elohim: The God of the Old Testament?
Again, this name literally means, Gods—a Hebrew idiom showing plurality of intensity rather than in number, He being, as the Psalmist said, “the God of gods.” (Ps 136:2)
As God is a Trinity, so this plural Name Elohim is a very beautiful way to express this truth. Of course, this truth would not be known without the revelation of the New Testament, so we know it under the light of the New Testament, the light brought by the Son who made the Father known to us. As we have seen, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are called Elohim. This is the ONE God, and there is no other God besides Him. All others are called gods, but they are not truly God the Creator; they are creatures. Note well that Elohim is not the Father alone, as Mormons imagine; we have seen the biblical evidence for this in our article The God of the Old Testament? Those who say Elohim is only the Father will fall either in the error of Mormonism (polytheism) or in the error of Sabellianism that teaches that Elohim or the Father is Himself the Trinity (Sabellianism is the false belief that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of the one God, and not three Persons) or in the error of Unitarianism which is very close to Sabellianism. We have refuted all these errors in our previous articles, especially in the articles Was the Church ignorant about the Nature of God?; Did Athanasius tell the Church who her God is?; Is the Church one in purpose or in substance?; The God of the Old Testament? We have seen how Elohim created the universe all Alone, and how the Three Persons of the Trinity are distinct and yet inseparable Persons of the same God. So this Name Elohim expresses this truth of the Trinity and it simply means God, the true God of the Bible, and the context of the Bible always puts a distinction between the true God as Elohim and any creatures called gods (elohim), and the Bible always makes it clear that there is only One Elohim (in the sense of the true Creator who is the Trinity), and that there is no other besides Him. We have seen all this in our previous articles.
He accepted Jehovah’s offer, not so much for Jehovah’s willingness to do His will as it was for Lucifer’s desire to take away man’s inalienable rights to agency—the freedom to choose for himself, reaping benefits or suffering consequences of his own actions. God Himself would not, indeed could not, take away that right. If He did, He would cease to be God. More on this doctrine later.
Stephen sees man’s freedom of choice so sacred and important that he makes it the real reason behind God’s Plan of Salvation, as if God in all His Sovereignty were dependent of man… Look how Stephen makes God so weak before man’s freedom of choice that He could not make His Plan independently of man’s choice… Stephen sees that if God did that, He would cease to be God, because for him God should be either a weak God who depends of man’s choices, or else He is not God… The truth of the Sovereign God of the Bible is unacceptable for Mormons, just as it is unacceptable for all sinners, because the flesh refuses God’s Sovereignty: “But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.'” (Luke 19:14) We have refuted the sovereignty of Agency in our article Sovereignty of Agency?… It is true that God has made man in His image, having the freedom to choose, but He didn’t put Himself and His Plan under the mercy of this freedom of choice, because man is a creature and he is dependent of God. It is man who should make his choices according to God’s Plan, and not God who should make His Plan according to man’s choices. After the Fall, man’s will is corrupted, so he needs to be regenerated and to receive a new will which is free indeed. Man’s will after the Fall is the slave of sin, and all his choices are against God and against His Will. So if God leaves man with his own resources, then all his actions will be carnal and against God, and thus he will only reap eternal death in Hell as the consequence of his own actions. The Bible clearly says: “Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be: and they that are in flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:7-8) Therefore the Lord Jesus explained that regeneration is needed, because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and cannot see the Kingdom of God: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that ye should be born anew.” (John 3:6-7) It is not the Plan of God that should be made according to man’s will and freedom of choice, but the will of man and consequently his choices should be made wholly new in accordance with God’s Plan of Salvation. This new will is received in the new birth which is wholly God’s work.
Grace be with you!
Disciple of Jesus Christ