We continue our comments on the manuscript sent to us by a Mormon called Stephen.(*) Click here to see the other articles in this series. You can also go to the Mormonism page to find all the articles that are in this refutation of Stephen’s document.
Before we can discuss the Plan of Salvation, God’s plan for the eternal happiness of His children,
Oh, so the Plan of Salvation for Mormons is about eternal happiness only… It’s not about the Glory of the Holy God, the forgiveness of sins, the passage from spiritual darkness to spiritual light, the walk in newness of life… It’s just that: eternal happiness without any care for the holiness of God… This carnal definition is indeed behind all the bizarre things that we read before…
Before we can discuss the Plan of Salvation, God’s plan for the eternal happiness of His children, we must discuss His role as the literal Father of our spirits, not just a figurative father of the “creature” we call man.
We have seen how this strange idea is against the teaching of the Bible: Are we the creatures of God, or His natural children?
In order to do that, we must explain His very nature and form beyond what we have learned in Chapter One. We believe He has a body of flesh and bones, not flesh and blood.
We have seen that God is Spirit and He does not have any bodily form. The superstitions of Mormons have zero biblical reference.
There is a distinct difference between these two types of flesh: the former can enter the Kingdom of God; the latter cannot.
God does not need to have a body and He does not need to enter the Kingdom of God. He is the King of that Kingdom and He is Perfect and has no need for Salvation. He is not outside the Kingdom and is not trying to enter there. He is the Holy King.
As with the JWs, some ECs claim even Christ cannot have a physical body now because, “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor. 15:50)
Christ has a physical risen body now, because He was incarnated and overcame sin and death and rose on the third day with the same body, because He doesn’t have the sinful flesh. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were not incarnated, so they don’t have a body.
And if JWs and some ECs are wrong, that doesn’t mean Mormonism is right. We pass…
Without giving the matter any further thought, a first look at this verse could give the impression Christ cannot have a body. As LDSs, we are in complete agreement “flesh and blood” cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Blood is life—mortal life. Verse 53 of the same chapter clarifies the difference between mortal and immortal flesh: “For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” The flesh is glorified and perfected in the Resurrection and contains no blood. As this verse indicates, there is a difference between mortal and immortal flesh.
So the difference between the body that we have now and the body that we will have in the resurrection is that the risen body is not a biological body like the one we have now, but a spiritual body which is a real body and which is NOT a different body, but the same body which we have now which has put on incorruption and immortality as Stephen has put in bold in that verse… And as the Father and the Holy Spirit were never incarnated, so all this has nothing to do with Them as They never had a biological body that could put on incorruption and immortality.
While the apostles were gathered together at Jerusalem, the resurrected Lord appeared to them and said, “Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24:36-39)
Yes, indeed, Jesus rose again in the same body.
The Savior then ate a piece of broiled fish and honeycomb to prove He was not just a spirit, but had a tangible physical body of flesh and bone—not flesh and blood.
Yes, Jesus has a real body now, a spiritual body that is real, but it is not biological. If by physical Stephen means this, then okay. If he means by it a biological or natural body, then we disagree, because the risen body of Jesus did not depend of physical or natural laws: “When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first [day] of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace [be] to you.” (John 20:19) So Jesus entered the house without having to open the door, because physical walls could not stop Him; His risen body was not a natural body that depends of physical laws.
After sojourning with them, “he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried away to heaven.” (Luke 24:50-53)
Let us now turn to the second half of the Gospel according to Luke, commonly called the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. While the Savior ascended to Heaven, the disciples were standing there, bewildered: “And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up in heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:10,11)
Yes, Jesus will come back with the same body and in the same way on the clouds to judge the living and the dead.
Readers, do you see any argument here for the Father having a flesh?…
We continue reading Stephen’s document:
We have already seen the difference between “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone.” But did Christ, Who was resurrected, leave His body during His ascension?
No, He didn’t. If He did, He would not be the Man who IS (now) the Mediator between God and men. He is the firstborn from the dead, i.e. the first risen in whom all rise: “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead“ (Revelation 1:5). Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15 how a man is risen in a real body, so Jesus, in order to be the firstborn from the dead, should be fully man like us even now, because even now He is the Mediator, the firstborn from the dead.
Let us read what the apostle James taught about the separation of the body and spirit. Since it is believed this James is the half-brother of Jesus, I think we can take for granted James knew a little more than the average Former-day Saint about this doctrine. He said, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.” (Jam. 2:26)
Who are “Former-day Saints”?… Anyway, we fully agree that the body without the spirit is dead. Now let’s see where this argument will get…
James taught a separation of body and spirit brings death. So, did Christ die twice, given some believe His body and spirit were separated a second time?
“Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.” (Rom. 6:9,10)
No, the body and spiritual soul of Jesus were never separated again after His resurrection. Let’s get to the end of this lame argument…
In April of 1843, Joseph Smith, the LDS prophet, gave the following description of the Members of the Godhead: “When the Saviour shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. . . . The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also: but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.” (D&C 130:1,22)
You see where this lame argument is getting?… So because the risen body is a real body, so the Father must have a body… What a strange argument! We have seen in our previous articles in this series how the Father does not have a body, so that case is closed. The Bible clearly says that God is Spirit and that He doesn’t have a body. Mormons are dreaming about the Father having a body of flesh and bones, and their prophet Joseph Smith was a false prophet, not only because he said this wrong thing, but also because of all the other wrong doctrines that we have refuted thus far.
But note with me also the carnal mind of Joseph Smith: he doesn’t understand spiritual things, so he uses arguments from physical logic to apply them to God. He says that the Holy Spirit could not have a body, because otherwise He could not dwell in us… Well, indeed, the Holy Spirit, just like the Father, does not have a body, but that argument is wrong, because if we use that argument, then the Father and the Son also could not dwell in us. But guess what Jesus said about this: “Jesus answered and said to him, If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23) So the Father and the Son dwell in us… Do we conclude from this that the Father and the Son do not have bodies?… What a false logic!… Again, Jesus said: “I in them and thou in me” (John 17:23). So Jesus now is in us… Does this mean that Jesus does not have a body??! The carnal mind cannot understand how God is a Trinity and thus can dwell in us through His Spirit in His fullness, Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
Thus we saw how Mormons build their arguments on the Book of Mormon and on the teachings of Joseph Smith, and THEN they try to twist the Scripture to make it agree with their idea. The Bible clearly teaches that the Father does not have a body, but as Joseph Smith taught that the Father has a body, so Mormons need to find a way to make it in agreement with the Bible that the Father may have a body… And their argument was this: as risen bodies are not like biological bodies, so the Father may have a body… That’s like saying: as there is a bird on my roof, so all roofs have a bird on them… Or: as there is a bird on my roof, so every roof where there is a bird is my roof…
“And God said, Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness; . . .” (Gen.1:26) We were created in the image and likeness of our Father. What does “image and likeness” mean?
We have seen what this means. Go to the following article and be instructed: Are we the creatures of God, or His natural children? Note that in this verse God speaks in plural (“us” and “our”), so this is not just the Father. We are created in the image of God, i.e. of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. If this verse is Mormons’ argument that the Father has a body, then we may also conclude from it that the Spirit also has a body, which even Mormons do not believe. But the simple fact is that this verse does NOT mean what Stephen is saying.
And note the Father’s use of plural pronouns. He was not talking to Himself, using plural pronouns to “multiply” His nature as Supreme.
No, the Father was talking to the Son and to the Holy Spirit saying “our image”. The Bible clearly says that God created all things by the Son, so in that passage He was talking with the Son for sure. So we are created in the image of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit who is that ONE Creator, our God. And yet, the Spirit does not have a body, as even Mormons admit!…
“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.” (Gen. 5:3) Seth’s image and likeness was that of his father, Adam. Adam’s image and likeness was therefore that of his Father, God.
Yes, Seth was NOT Adam, but like Adam, just as we have wisdom and free will like God. But our natural relationship with God is not like the natural relationship of Seth with Adam. Besides being in the image of Adam in characters, Seth also was in the image of Adam in nature. We have seen that this is not the case in our natural relationship with God. Naturally, we are the creatures of God, and only Jesus is called the ONLY-BEGOTTEN Son of God, i.e. the unique in His Nature. The natural relationship of Jesus with the Father is like the natural relationship of Seth with Adam, but our natural relationship with the Father is the relationship of creatures with their God. Spiritually, we become children of God when we receive Jesus Christ. We have seen all the details about this in our article Are we the creatures of God, or His natural children?
Talking with a Samaritan woman, the Lord Jesus Christ explained the personality of God. We must keep in mind the Samaritans were an idolatrous people. The Lord even told her, “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: . . .” (John 4:22) Then, in verse 23, the Lord explained to the woman how the true worshippers of God must worship Him, “in spirit and in truth.” Before the Lord identified Himself as the Messiah, he told her in verse 24, “God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” The Lord reiterated His explanation of how true worshippers must worship God, explaining God is a spirit, not a piece of wood, stone, or metal. Does this mean God cannot have a body? If you believe He cannot, then how can we worship Him “in spirit” while we have a body?
Who said God cannot have a body?? Who is Jesus?? Is He not God incarnate?? So God can have a body. But the Father does not have a body, because He was not incarnated.
Having a body does not hinder the spiritual worship, but on the contrary it is used in spiritual worship as the Bible teaches: “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” (Romans 12:1) But, of course, Stephen has no idea about the fact that “in spirit” means “spiritual” just as is the case in the following verse: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.“ (John 3:6) Does this mean that we who are born of the Spirit we do not have a body? Of course not. This means that we are spiritual. What Jesus was telling that Samaritan woman is that the Old Covenant of symbols and shadows is passing, and now the true worshipers will begin to worship according to the New Covenant which doesn’t have a certain worship place like the Temple of Jerusalem, but wherever two or three are gathered together in Christ’s Name, there Christ is, as He also promised. Now the Temple of God is us, the Church, i.e. our bodies. This is what the New Testament teaches. Once again, we see that our bodies are not a hindrance to the New Covenant spiritual worship, but on the contrary they are the very temples of this worship and the very sacrifices in Christ, which are LIVING sacrifices, because Christ our only Sacrifice for sin has already died and there is no more need for a sacrifice for sin.
Of course, a sectarian like Stephen will not understand what the New Covenant is, because his Mormon teachers do not teach him this, for they don’t even know it themselves…
Because we are spirits—spirits with bodies.
No, those who are not born of God are not spiritual, but carnal, so they can’t worship God in the way Jesus was telling that Samaritan woman. Having a dead spirit is not enough to be able to worship God in spirit and in truth. Just as the body without spirit is dead, our spirits also without God are spiritually dead in sins. We need Christ to reconcile us with God and thus to make us His spiritual children in Him so that we may worship Him in spirit and in truth.
We are spirit children of our Heavenly Father.
We have seen the full refutation of this satanic doctrine in our article Are we the creatures of God, or His natural children?
This concept will be discussed later on in this chapter, as the majority of ECs do not believe we are premortal spirits clothed with bodies.
We have already seen the biblical refutation of this satanic doctrine, so anything that will be said later in that chapter will be in contradiction with God’s Word. Our spirits are born WITH our bodies as ONE man; we are creatures and we do not exist from eternity past. We have seen all this in details.
But, for now, let us reason together.
It is true God is a spirit. But to say He is just a spirit because “you have to take the Bible literally” is also saying God cannot be a person because “God is love” (1 John 4:16) and is therefore an emotion
We are not saying that God has no body just because the Bible says God is Spirit, but because the Bible also says that God does not have a body as we have seen. And agape love is not an emotion; it’s about the Nature of God, just as Spirit is the Nature of God. In fact, the fact that God is love means that God is personal… This is not the place to explain agape love to a cultist, but let us just say that his argument is lame: he says that God can have a body, because “God is love” does not mean that God is an emotion… What an argument! The Bible clearly says that God is Spirit by Nature and that He doesn’t have a body. A good argument would be to say: As God is love, so He does not have partiality. In the same way, as God is the OMNIPRESENT Spirit, so He does not have a body. As you see, the good argument is against Mormons…
or “God is light” (1 John 1:5) and is therefore just the radiation of electromagnetic energy.
Again, this is not about natural light and it is not about radiation or electronic energy, but about the Holy Nature of God. A good argument would be: “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5). In the same way, just as light and darkness are different natures and God cannot be both, so are spirit and body, and God cannot be both; God is either a spiritual Being, or a physical Being; He can’t be both. So once again the good argument is against Mormons…
The false gods are described in the 115th Psalm: “They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: . . .” The bold highlights indicate abilities that require a physical body. A spirit can see, hear, speak, and move. But, without a physical body, how could a spirit have a sense of smell, taste, or touch? If God the Father did not have a body, could He be any more capable of using these senses than the false gods? Could He feel with His hand?
The idols have all those members and yet they cannot feel or smell or touch, while God does not have those physical members, and yet He can smell and taste and touch in the spiritual sense. Do you see how much God is Omnipotent? I am sure this is not familiar for a cultist like you, Stephen. God does not feel things like we do; for Him all these things are in a spiritual way. But the Bible uses these words about Him in order to make His Nature understandable to us in some way. God does not have members like us; He is Spirit and He is Omnipresent; He is God and not human…
“And no man ascendeth up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13) There are numerous verses where Jesus identifies Himself as “the Son of man.” But this verse specifies which Man!
No, this verse explains how the Son of Man is in Heaven at the same time when He is talking with Nicodemus. Jesus told Nicodemus that while He was talking with him, He was in Heaven at the same time, because He is God incarnate (the Son of Man). “Son of man” is one expression, and “which is in heaven” is about this Son of Man.
Given Christ is the Onlybegotten in the flesh of the Father and the Firstborn in the spirit of the Father (Col. 1:15), that Man is none other than God the Eternal Father, or Elohim, the God of all Gods.
Where does the Bible say that Christ is the Only-Begotten of the Father in flesh?? And where does Colossians 1:15 say that Christ is the Firstborn of the Father in spirit?? Note that the verse says “the firstborn of all creation”, and not “the Firstborn of the Father” as Stephen speculates. There is nothing like this in the Bible or in that verse. The very next verse, Colossians 1:16, says that God created all things by the Son, and we have seen that God created all things all Alone. So if the interpretation of Stephen is right, then God didn’t create all things all alone, but He created all things with His Firstborn… Thus the interpretation of Stephen contradicts the Scripture.
That Man?? John 3:13 is about the Son of Man, and not about any Man. The Son of Man is in Heaven.
Before explaining the nature of the souls of men, I would like to pose some questions about the soul of God and ask you to reason with me.
The soul of God?? Is God a creature to have a soul?? It’s clear that Stephen has no idea about the difference between soul and spirit… We pass… In the Bible, according to each particular context, soul means something, so I will leave it to the concerned context to explain what it means.
Do you believe God the Father could empathize with and truly understand the trials and suffering of His Onlybegotten if He Himself were not able to feel pain with a body?
Yes, I believe this, because the Father and the Son are One, and so all what the Son felt in the body the Father knew fully and perfectly. Besides this, God knows how we feel without even being a human like us, because God is Omniscient. God does not need to be a bird to know how birds feel, for example…
How carnal… We pass…
Could God the Father be All-knowing, as we all claim to believe, if He did not know how it feels to suffer pain or enjoy physical affection—which knowledge only experience with a physical body can bring?
Can you know that you will die if you fall from the 12th floor if you don’t fall first?… This is the kind of argument Stephen is using… As if God needed to be a flower in order to know how flowers feel…
Indeed, this is where carnal minds get as they refuse the light of God in Christ.
Could He be a fair Judge of us if He did not know how difficult overcoming the temptations of the flesh could be?
As God is a Trinity, so He can. Actually, He gave the whole judgment to the Son BECAUSE He is the Son of Man: “and has given him authority to execute judgment [also], because he is Son of man.” (John 5:27) God became man in the Son, so He knows all our temptations, and yet without sin: “for, in that himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those that are being tempted.” (Hebrews 2:18) Stephen always forgets that God was incarnated… If He already had a body, He would not have to be incarnated in the Son in order to save us.
I have been told by ECs and JWs alike how we LDSs worship a different God than they because we worship a God with a physical body. I accept that judgment.
Yes, you agree with the Pagans in this; what a good company…
However, in light of what we have just discussed, our God is superior to the non-corporeal gods who are no more capable of the aforementioned senses than the dumb idols apostate Israel adopted from their ancient enemies.
Your physical god does not exist, so he can’t be superior to the true God. But the Bible explains why you consider him superior: read Romans 1:21-25.
Grace be with you!
Disciple of Jesus Christ