We continue our comments on the manuscript sent to us by a Mormon called Stephen.(*) Click here to see the other articles in this series. You can also go to the Mormonism page to find all the articles that are in this refutation of Stephen’s document.
Another item needs to be addressed in this chapter. There has been a lot of debate over the War in Heaven mentioned in Revelation 12. This one chapter in the middle of John’s Book of Prophecy is out of sequence with the rest of the text.
Out of sequence?? For whom? For a confused Mormon like you?? That chapter is in a perfect agreement with the whole of the Book of Revelation and with the whole Bible. Let’s see what is the problem of Mormons with that chapter…
A careful study reveals it as an overview of earth’s temporal history that started in Pre-Existence.
Now you want to convince me that Mormons can do a careful study of God’s Word?… What we have seen thus far proves the opposite…
Earth’s temporal history that started in pre-existence?? Is this Chinese?… How was there a history of the earth before existence? The earth did not exist then!…
It is what scholars call a parenthetical interpolation, an overview insertion placed in a text for clarification and as a point of reference of surrounding text.
Which text? Which interpolation?? What are you talking about?…
The woman mentioned at the beginning of Revelation 12 refers to the Kingdom of God.
Excuse me?… Which verse made you say this?? Did the Kingdom of God give birth to a male child who is Jesus Christ?…
Her “man child” would be the temporal version of the Kingdom, the Church.
Let us read that verse:
“And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5)
I wonder when the Church was caught up to God’s Throne… And I wonder how the Church is shepherding the nations with an iron rod… Stephen just interprets Scripture with his imaginations, as it seems… So let’s see who is this male Son who will shepherd all the nations with an iron rod and who was caught up to God:
The Son who will shepherd all the nations with an iron rod:
“And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, [called] Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; and [he is] clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which [are] in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen. And out of his mouth goes a sharp [two-edged] sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; and he treads the wine-press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 19:15) This passage clearly says that the one who will shepherd the nations with an iron rod is JESUS CHRIST, the Faithful and True (see Revelation 3:14), the one who has flame of fire eyes (see Revelation 1:14), the Word of God (see John 1:1).
The Son who was caught up to God:
“And having said these things he was taken up, they beholding [him], and a cloud received him out of their sight.” (Acts 1:9) So it’s Jesus who was taken up.
“For David has not ascended into the heavens, but he says himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I have put thine enemies [to be] the footstool of thy feet. Let the whole house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:34-36) So it is Jesus who was taken up to the Throne of God and now sits at the right hand of God on His Throne: “I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)
Have you read anything about any temporal version of the Kingdom, the Church?… So Stephen is hallucinating…
Many ECs believe it refers to Christ.
Yeah, how bad of them to believe what the Bible says, right?…
However, neither the Kingdom nor the Church gave birth to Christ.
Israel, the woman with 12 Tribes represented by those twelve stars on the head of the woman, gave birth to Jesus, and now Israel is the Church. We have seen the details about this truth in two main articles on this blog: “A woman shall encompass a man” – What does this mean? and The Assumption of Mary? From this latter article I will quote the concerned passage:
It is not new for John who wrote the Revelation to call a people by the symbol of a woman or a lady (cf. 2 John 1:1). And it is not new for God to call a people by the symbol of a woman! In the whole Old Testament, Israel as the people of God is the wife of God! Indeed, the people of God is described with the glory of the sun in Song 6:10 just like in Revelation 12:1: “Who is she that looketh forth as the dawn, Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, Terrible as troops with banners?” (Song 6:10) This woman of Revelation 12 has on her head a crown of 12 stars who are the twelve tribes of Israel according to Genesis 37:9-10 and Genesis 49:1-28: “And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamt another dream, and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me. And he told [it] to his father and to his brethren. And his father rebuked him, and said to him, What is this dream which thou hast dreamt? Shall we indeed come, I and thy mother and thy brethren, to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” (Genesis 37:9-10) This woman of Revelation 12 has the pain of childbirth, and this is indeed said to happen to the people of God: “Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Can a land be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her sons. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith Jehovah; I who cause to bring forth, shall I shut [the womb]? saith thy God. Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all ye that love her; rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn over her: because ye shall suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; because ye shall drink out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith Jehovah: Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the nations like an overflowing torrent; and ye shall suck, ye shall be carried upon the side, and be dandled upon the knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 66:7-13); “Now why dost thou cry out aloud? Is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished, that pangs have seized thee as a woman in travail? Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail; for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon: there shalt thou be delivered; there Jehovah will redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.” (Micah 4:9-10). And of course, all this is not about the whole people of Israel, but about the remnant of Israel who are the real people of God and who are ONE people with the Church of Christ; thus the twelve stars on the head of this woman are symbols of the twelve Apostles of Christ who represent the twelve tribes of the remnant of Israel in unity with the Church. This one people is called “Jerusalem above”: “but the Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break out and cry, thou that travailest not; because the children of the desolate are more numerous than [those] of her that has a husband.” (Galatians 4:26-27) It is indeed Jerusalem ABOVE, as Revelation 12 also pictures this woman as being in Heaven (cf. Ephesians 2:6, Revelation 21:2). Thus the people of God is both the mother of Christ through the remnant and the bride of Christ through the Apostles! For more details about this, please read our articles Who is the mother of believers? and “A woman shall encompass a man” – What does this mean? As you see, the passages quoted here in this paragraph contain details explained in Revelation 12, like the pains of childbirth and the going to the wilderness or to Babylon. In Revelation 12:4 the dragon wants to devour the newborn Child as soon as He is born, and this is indeed what happened when Jesus was born: Herod wanted to kill Jesus, so he murdered the babies of Bethlehem. On the occasion of this massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, God gives us an example of how this woman of Revelation 12 is in pains of childbirth, for the murder of babies was indeed a pain of Christ’s birth! On this occasion the woman is mentioned to have cried in this pain of childbirth: “A voice has been heard in Rama, weeping, and great lamentation: Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.” (Matthew 2:18) Rachel represented the people of God which gave birth to Christ.
On the contrary, He created them.
So what? If God created Israel so He can’t be incarnated from Israel? What kind of arguments is this?
Many ECs believe the War in Heaven, where Satan and the third of the hosts of Heaven were cast out “into the earth” is some future event, as it does not clarify the time of this event with its imperfect past, “there was war in heaven.”
This war has already happened, and the Lord Jesus has already overcome on the cross. It’s not difficult to know what this war was, because the very next verse tells us what it is and how the righteous rejoiced for the victory in that war: “And I heard a great voice in the heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out, who accused them before our God day and night” (Revelation 12:10) Don’t you know when our Salvation came? You don’t know when the Kingdom came with power?? You don’t know when the Millennial Kingdom of Christ began?? Well, all that happened before that generation passed away which was in the days of Jesus. For more information about this, you can read the following articles: This generation will not pass away until all these things take place; An introduction to last days prophecies.
However, this chronology is illogical, as Satan was already in the Garden of Eden to tempt our first parents.
What does this have to do with anything?? Do you think that the expression “cast out into the earth” means that Satan is now living on earth?? We have already seen that Satan and his angels are NOW in the heavenly places, and we have seen how Satan also stood before God in Heaven when Job was tempted. You need to read those parts carefully, because we have seen how wrong you are in this.
He was already an evil and rebellious spirit by that time.
Yes, so what??… What does this have to do with the war of Revelation 12?… Do you think Satan stopped his war against the Sovereignty of God after his original fall?… What kind of logic is this, Stephen?…
It would be ludicrous to believe he had power, after his rebellion, to come and go between Heaven and earth whenever he pleased.
Why? Is the spiritual realm limited by the physical universe that you see? Does Satan need to be in a certain place in order to be kept for always in the chains of darkness?? Is this how you understand biblical truths? “And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to [the] judgment of [the] great day” (Jude 6) Does this mean that Satan’s angels are now tied in chains in a dark place and they can’t tempt people on earth? Does this not mean that they are forever doomed just in the same way they were forever overcome and thrown to earth when Christ died and rose?…
Your argument is silly, because after Eden Satan is seen many times in the heavenly realm, one of them in the time of Job, and the other one when there was debate about the body of Moses: “But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against [him], but said, [The] Lord rebuke thee.” (Jude 9) And even now, Satan and his angels are in the heavenly places: “because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual [power] of wickedness in the heavenlies.” (Ephesians 6:12)
In response to the Seventy returning to report their success at casting out devils in Christ’s name, the Lord made this bold and unequivocal statement: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” (Luke 10:17,18) This declaration of the Lord’s Divinity as God in Pre-Existence leaves no room for debate. Even 2,000 years ago, the fall of Satan was listed as a past event.
Yes, as I said above, Satan was thrown to earth, i.e. he was overcome, in the ministry of Jesus Christ. When the disciples came back and reported to Jesus how they exercised power on the powers of Satan, Jesus told them that truth that through His ministry Satan is overcome. Or else, why did He talk about that in a context where we see the disciples coming back and reporting to Him the powerful things God has done through them?
Later, in Ephesians 6:12, Paul tells us that Satan and his angels are in the heavenly places, so being thrown to the earth doesn’t mean something physical, i.e. it doesn’t mean that those angels fell from a place called Heaven to a place called earth, but they were overcome and thrown to earth in the spiritual realm, i.e. in the heavenly places (as an enemy falls to earth in a fight when you overcome him). Satan and his angels were overcome by the death and resurrection of our Lord. And Jesus saw that happening as His ministry was going on on earth, because at the same time when He was in flesh here on earth, He was also in the heavenly places, and He was seeing all what was happening in the spiritual realm as His ministry was going on. Job could not know what was going on in Heaven between Satan and God when he was tempted, but Jesus is God and could see all what was behind the scene.
Since there is no mention of the War in Heaven itself in the temporal history of the OT, by process of elimination, it was therefore a premortal event.
Since this war happened in the time when Jesus was on earth, so I don’t see what we have to eliminate in that process of elimination… Before existence Satan did not exist, so how could he make any war??
Grace be with you!
Disciple of Jesus Christ